27 July 2023



I am a believer in the integrity of Rites.

It seems to me an outrage that a man being consecrated Bishop in the Albanian Orthodox Church should interpolate the Filioque.

And can somebody tell me which of the different jurisdictions the bombed Cathedral in Odessa belongs to? 

The Russkies have hitherto refrained from bombing shrines and the historic centres of cities.

And what is the Ukrainian government up to in Pechersk?


Christophorus said...

The cathedral is the 'mother church' of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate)

I do believe other holy places have been hit -- although perhaps by accident.

Victor said...

The Russians have not on the slightest shown any restrain. A lot of churches have been hit and destroyed by the Russians, e.g. the Sviatohirskyj monastery in Donezk Oblast. The church in Odesa was the Ukrainian Orthodox (Moscow patriarchate) cathedral of said city, destroyed by Stalin, rebuilt in the early 2000s and consecrated by patriarch Kyrill in 2011. What happens in the Pecherska Lavra is that the rule of law is exercised against a group of monks who did whatever they wanted during the last 30 years, destroying historical buildings, all the time while distributing anti-ukrainian propaganda. There is no need to feel sorry for them.

frjustin said...

Nearly 300 priests of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate) have called for the dissolution of ties with the Moscow Patriarchate after a Russian attack badly damaged the church’s cathedral in Odesa.

“We call on you again and again to urgently convene the council of the UOC-MP, where the final break with the Russian Orthodox Church should take place, along with the condemnation of Patriarch Kirill’s position and that of the clergy subordinate to him, both in relation to Putin’s aggressive war and the annexation of Ukrainian dioceses,” the priests said.


Hjelle said...

Regarding the Albanian bishop, he was consecrated for the Ecumenical Patriarchate’s Albanian diocese in the USA (which consists of two parishes). The actual Albanian Orthodox Church had registered their objection prior to his consecration. As to his inclusion of filioque at his consecration, I’ve no idea, but I suspect we’ll hear more in due time.

coradcorloquitur said...

And to think that some Catholics today believe that the only way to escape the apostasy of the Francis regime is to seek shelter in the Orthodox Church---with all its internal divisions, petty fights which boil down to nationalist quarrels, and heretical teachings regarding marriage, purgatory, the Immaculate Conception, the Filioque, and the petrine ministry (defiled as that ministry is today by Francis). Not to speak of the suffocating ethnicity of its parishes. Not for me, thank you very much, no matter what the Good Lord allows to happen to the Church His Son founded on Peter: He knows the reason for the current, unprecedented devastation---and I certainly do not.

John Patrick said...

Ideally the UOC would swim the Tiber and join the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. They wouldn't have to change much beyond adding a prayer to the Pope in their litany.

Arthur Gallagher said...

Here we go again with that Filioque.
The original dispute had nothing to do with doctrine. It had to do with jurisdiction, and whether the bishop of a non-Apostolic see had the right to control what was happening somewhere else. Hence, the stupid title of "Ecumenical Patriarch", a silly bit of heresy all on its own.
Of course, the Bible itself shows that Jesus SENT the Paraclete from the Father. So this objection to the filioque clause is simply about Liturgy, and nothing else.
Yet, it has taken on a life of its own, and has produced endless heretical arguments, and mental contortions in order to justify the Greek position on a substantive level, which can only lead to more dishonesty and contorted reasoning than might seem possible.
This confusion, of course, all comes from the Devil, as it almost always does. It is not a mere academic or historical dispute, it is responsible for continued division in the Church, and is of current importance in the United States, where it is being used to promote division among potential converts to this very day.

Arthur Gallagher said...

Victor: If you think that the Russians have not shown any restraint, you must not know anything about Russian military doctrine, where a Corps echeloned in a column of Divisions is a thing, and where overwhelming force is the preferred tactic. Just look at the (Justified) Russian invasion of Georgia if you doubt me on this.
I am an old Cold Warrior- an ardent Anti-Communist, and a patriotic American, but if we are being honest, both wars in Iraq waged by the USA were high-tech orgies of destruction beyond all belief.
The only restraint shown by our leadership in Iraq was in the protection of Moslem holy sites, real or imagined. Civilians, schools, hospitals, and necessary infrastructure were all fair game.
There are many people in the American military who are disgusted by this, but the truth is that what is known as the "American Way of War" concentrates on using highly lethal munitions, frequently of a high-tech variety, and from long range, as a substitute for maneuver and skilled application of combined arms techniques. This accomplishes two objectives: it greatly reduces AMERICAN casualties, and greatly enriches our defense contractors. Who cares if countless civilians are killed? Or if enemy combatants are hideously maimed at a level that typically that does not happen in more traditional types of warfare. There will be no questions in Congress, and no embarrassing press. And that is what matters.
And Ukrainian is getting Cluster Bombs.

Prayerful said...

Many, many Orthodox churches have been destroyed by bloodthirsty invaders who are now being slowly and steadily reduced. Whole cities with these churches, not just some 'historical centre' have been utterly destroyed. What Ukraine does is use the process of law against a private society (UOC-MP) who have engaged in subversion against Ukraine and done notable damage to her heritage, removing precious icons and altar ware from Pecherska Lavra and other churches and religious houses (which have repeated been found to hold arms, currency, Z propaganda. What must be remembered is that the Moscow Patriarchate (whose Ukrainian sub jurisdiction controls the cathedral) was founded by the NKVD in 1943 with its agents taking senior episcopal and abbatial roles. The luxury loving (and railway hating for Putin gave him another palace as one he had was near a railway, something he hates) priest Gundyaev aka Patriarch Kirill is himself an FSB agent. Whenever Russia is freed from its sub Soviet dictatorship, the Moscow Patriarchate will need to be disestablished. It's as much Russia's Church as the Church of Ireland was Ireland's Church. Some estimates are between 3% and (at most) 15% have any sort of regular engagement with the Russian Orthodox Church. It is of course wholly schismatic, leaving aside its Stalinist foundations.

Victor said...

I really don't care what wars your silly country fought, and whether they were justified or unjustified. But if you say the atrocities committed by the Russian soldiers in Ukraine and Georgia didn't happen, or that they were somehow justified, then I really lose any interest in you as a human being. Leave me alone and rot in the hell that your USA are becoming.

Victor said...

This analysis by a Polish think tank is very apropos of our discussion... https://pism.pl/publications/russian-aggression-speeding-up-changes-in-religious-situation-in-ukraine

Arthur Gallagher said...

Victor: I never addressed any "atrocities" committed by Russia, in either Georgia or Ukraine. I stated that the Russian military actions against both of those countries were justified- in the sense that Russia had legitimate and grave reasons for both wars. If you somehow think that Russia should have tolerated the abuse of ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine, or ignore Nato expansionism, and encirclement in the form of a Nato-aligned Georgia, then you are simply not thinking clearly. Atrocities are very common in war, whether the atrocities are approved of or not. You, however, feel free to ignore the numerous Ukrainian atrocities perpetrated against Russians. The continuation of the current war cannot be justified, and is more on Zelinski, Biden and Nato than on anyone else. I note in closing that your ill-informed and illogical comments are not improved by your puerile and insulting personal attacks, and do nothing to improve your emotional outburst.