17 September 2015

Update

I have just returned from a fortnight in loveliest Northumberland, and have whizzed through comments ... enabling most.

One detail. A couple of people have assured me that ... for example ... Benedict XVI referred to himself as "I" in Deus Caritas est. But, in the Latin text, he doesn't. He refers to himself as "We". The point of my "We" post was to point out that although popes continue to use the dignified "We"in the normative Latin texts of documents, the English translators of their documents have for some time now been mistranslating "we" as "I". I'm a little puzzled that people misunderstood my original post, because I've looked back at it and found it quite clear. Humbly, most humbly, I beg: please read what I write before commenting; it is rather dismissive for readers to glance quickly through and get a quick general misunderstanding! (The most recent papal documents published a week or two ago modifying Canon Law continue to represent Pope Francis as referring to himself as We.)

A plea for help from a brother priest. He needs the texts of an EF Mass for our Lady of Salette on September 19. If anyone can provide this, could they put it into the thread?

9 comments:

Cherub said...

Well I, for one, thought Father Hunwicke was clear in what he said, and just as importantly, he is right in what he said. A Clear example is to be found at the end of Evangelium vitae: "Datum Romae, apud Sanctum Petrum, die vicesimo quinto mensis Martii, in sollemnitate Annuntiationis Domini, anno MCMXCV, Pontificatus Nostri septimo decimo." In English the "Pontificatus Nostri" has been rendered "my Pontificate". The Popes use "we"! Father Hunwicke's reasons why that should be so are also very persauasive.

Belfry Bat said...

W.r.t the Feast whose Texts are requested; can a clear indication of from what year a feast was granted for this apparition?

That indeed there is such a feast?

If there was, might it have been suppressed before 1962? (I have a 1962 Miss.R. which does not mention La Salette)

Is it clear that a unique Proper was designated rather than the Seasonal Mass (in this case, Salve Sancta Parens...)? (There seems nothing unsuitable in the Proper texts for Our Lady of Lourdes Feb. 11, as it happens)

I was also going to ask: "would it help to ask the Diocese of Grenoble-Vienne?" since it was originally their look-out, really, but at a glance the web-site was simply appalling...

John Nolan said...

The versions of the recent Bull in French, German, Italian and Spanish also use the first person singular. One can assume that the original was not written in Latin and so the use of the first person plural, although traditional and correct, is down to the Latin Letters Section of the Secretariat of State rather than the Pope.

After nearly two years there is still no Latin version of Evangelii Gaudium; perhaps its ramblings have proved untranslatable.

Banshee said...

MusicaSacra.com has texts for such a Mass, all laid out as a brochure by Fr. Samuel F. Weber, OSB, but it's maybe for the Ordinary Form since bits are in English:

http://media.musicasacra.com/weber/propers/18.09.09%20BVM%20Reconciliation.pdf.

I guess otherwise you just do a Mass for the BVM.

I haven't found any old French missal that was Latin Rite yet, although I remember finding an old Breton EF missal; so they've got to be online somewhere. Maybe I need to look for martyrologies or something.

John Vasc said...

In the German text of his first encyclical, Deus Caritas Est, Pope Benedict did actually use the first person singular (ich, mich) where the Latin version has the ceremonial first person plural (ich moechte/volumus). The German text really does have all the natural hallmarks of Benedict's fluid literary style, and the strong inference must be that the Holy Father composed that encyclical in German.
Benedict's use 'ich' is of course a lot more modest, tentative and academically prefatory ('I would like to...' or (30.) 'Before I attempt to etc) than the 'I' of other writers.
In the heart of the text he does use 'we' and 'us' and 'our' - but to describe the collective Christian viewpoint and experience.

John Vasc said...

In the German text of his first encyclical, Deus Caritas Est, Pope Benedict did actually use the first person singular (ich, mich) where the Latin version has the ceremonial first person plural (ich moechte/volumus). The German text really does have all the natural hallmarks of Benedict's fluid literary style, and the strong inference must be that the Holy Father composed that encyclical in German.
Benedict's use 'ich' is of course a lot more modest, tentative and academically prefatory ('I would like to...' or (30.) 'Before I attempt to etc) than the 'I' of other writers.
In the heart of the text he does use 'we' and 'us' and 'our' - but to describe the collective Christian viewpoint and experience.

Rose Marie said...

How perverse these translators are. For decades we were burdened with "We believe" that should have been "I believe." They are not wedded to "I." They are just determined to get it wrong! Traitors indeed!

Matthew Roth said...

Fr. Weber’s work is for the OF.

Heaton Hypnosis and Psychotherapy Practice said...

Dear Father, Please do not tell others of the beauties of Northumbria.....me fears more people will come.