I do not credit the reports that PF recently said to seminarians from Barcelona ... in effect ... that there are "f*cking careerists f*cking up the lives of others".
I know PF has a history of foul-mouthed bad language. You don't need to explain to me that he is not a terribly nice individual. But justice requires us to apply the same standards of proof to a Roman Pontiff as charity requires us to apply to any other human.
PF spoke either in Italian or Spanish or ... just conceivably ... in Catalan. (His English appears to be negligible ... and why, in any case, would he use English when speaking to such an audience?)
The English phrase (cited supra) is a neat and sinewy piece of indecent English prose cleverly combining different idiomatic uses of the verb f*ck. Could Italian or Spanish equivalents combine the same indecency with the same lexicon and idioms? I am not a Hispanist; but my instinct is to question it.
I shall not believe that PF said these words until somebody competent in Romance philology can tell me what his Italian/Spanish words actually were; and supply a scholarly account of the idiomatic linguistic usages at play in his Italian/Spanish.
Then we can start to examine more straightforward considerations of historical fact.
Until then, I consider it unjust to assume things that need to be demonstrated.
Should we not worry more that he seems to have told the seminarians that repentance is not a necessary condition for absolution?
ReplyDeletePardon me - I think you mean "Barcelona"...
ReplyDeleteFather, is the matter of whether or not he used vulgar language not entirely secondary to what he is reported to have said about absolution? The latter statements seem more amenable to translation, but I'm no expert.
ReplyDeleteChingar is a vulgar Spanish slang verb meaning “to fuck,” and is used about as widely and variously as the English verb fuck.Nov 5, 2018
ReplyDeletechingar Meaning | Translations by Dictionary.com
I sent that "philological note about "chingar," which I know to be true in certain countries in Latin America. But whether Pope Francis used that term - or not - is of course not confirmed. Or denied in Rome, it should be said.
ReplyDeleteThis matter was reported in the Catholic Herald on 17 January 2023.
ReplyDeleteIt concerned a speech given to a group of seminarians from Barcelona and not Bologna. They were accompanied by an auxiliary bishop of that diocese named Pellisa.
Of much greater concern than the use of foul language (for which his Holiness has quite a reputation) is what he had to say to these future priests about the sacrament of Penance. He told them that they should grant absolution even when the penitent has no intention to repent.
He "ordered them not to be clerical,to forgive everything adding that if we see that there is no intention to repent, we must forgive all. We can never deny absolution because we become a vehicle for an evil, unjust, and moralistic judgment" It is alleged that he described priests who deny absolution as delinquents. The article then describes how out of kilter these statements are with Church teaching and Canon Law. He made similar remarks to Latin American seminarians on a previous but recent occasion describing such priests as criminals.
I am much more exercised at having such a wrong headed Pope than a foul mouthed one.
Without any direct knowledge of the encounter I offer the following. IF the Pope used a vulgar term it was probably “cazzo” or a variation of it. The term is in common use in Italy – even in the newspapers, by public figures etc. While it can mean ‘f*ck’ it is not considered as strong a term and is more ‘acceptable’ in public discourse.
ReplyDeleteTo me it is similar to Irish people saying ‘feck’ instead of ‘f*ck’, softening the sound or meaning and considered more acceptable..
Pope Francis could submit to the use of a swear jar. The money gathered would likely relieve any financial issues endured by the Vatican (even with its rip off prices for everything). Yet the pronunciation of someone who learned his Italian from his parents, who themselves had emigrated from Lombardy to Argentina might've created confusion. It seems reasonable to suggest that the words have his habitual coarseness and aggression.
ReplyDeleteAnyhow, no report makes clear the language, whether Castellano or Italian (almost certainly the only languages in which he has proficiency) used by the Holy Father.
As suggested by Richard above, the apparent words that repentance is not needed for absolution seem fairly astounding even for him. Francis seems fine (unless every report of his words are mistaken) with those who sin, go to Confession to clean the slate with little intention of amendment, and sin mortally again. Such a Confession is surely invalid, acting as both psychological crutch and spiritual danger.
Pope Francis could submit to the use of a swear jar. The money gathered would likely relieve any financial issues endured by the Vatican (even with its rip off prices for everything). Yet the pronunciation of someone who learned his Italian from his parents, who themselves had emigrated from Lombardy to Argentina might've created confusion. It seems reasonable to suggest that the words have his habitual coarseness and aggression.
ReplyDeleteAnyhow, no report makes clear the language, whether Castellano or Italian (almost certainly the only languages in which he has proficiency) used by the Holy Father.
As suggested by Richard above, the apparent words that repentance is not needed for absolution seem fairly astounding even for him. Francis seems fine (unless every report of his words are mistaken) with those who sin, go to Confession to clean the slate with little intention of amendment, and sin mortally again. Such a Confession is surely invalid, acting as both psychological crutch and spiritual danger.
The website https://brujulacotidiana.com/es/francisco-y-los-seminaristas-de-barcelona-el-misterio-del-discurso-cambiado:
ReplyDelete"Por lo que cuentan algunos seminaristas, se dice que el Papa habló de “los que trepan para mostrar su c**o”, de “los carreristas que son unos jodidos que joden la vida a los demás”, y otras cosas por el estilo."
"According to some seminarians the Pope spoke of 'those who climb up to show their backsides', and of 'careerists who are screwed up and who screw up everybody else's life as well', and other similar things."
I think 'backside' and 'screwed' are better translations that simply using the first choice word in a dictionary; dynamic equivalence does have a place!
If my Bishop called me a miserable sod I wouldn't think for a moment that he meant that I was a disconsolate sodomite, but I would think him an exceptionally vulgar man.
(The vulgarity seems small beer alongside the reported comments about Confession: perhaps I am becoming inured to him.)
Cazxo in italian actually means "prick" ( the male organ), and has verb forms " incazzare, incazzarsi, incazzato" , and derived nouns "cazzata" etc. that are regularly used in common vulgar speach, esp. by men - but not in official speach, nor by clerics in public. Bergoglio is the exception. I grew up in Roma, and speak the local dialect. But surely Bergoglio spoke in spanish ( castellano) to the seminarians in Barcelona!!! I doubt whether he speaks Catalan. The scandalised seminarians themselves reported on the actual vulgar talk uttered by Bergoglio.
ReplyDeleteAs I thought further about this affair I appreciated all the more the blessing it was to live during the pontificate of Benedict XVI. Can you imagine him engaging in this sort of vulgarity and ignorant behaviour especially when addressing future priests?
ReplyDeleteIt was a great privilege to have such a holy, learned, cultured , refined, dignified and gentle man on the throne of Peter. We didn't appreciate Benedict enough until confronted with his successor.
How have we ended up with such a crude, vulgar, ignorant and nasty man as our Pope?
The wonderful clarity of Benedict's teaching is such a contrast to the chaos and confusion that attends this pope's utterances.
We must pray to Benedict that these dark days in which the Church is engulfed may soon give way to better times.
ReplyDeleteSurely giving absolution to someone who has not the slightest shred of a purpose of amendment would not effect the divine forgiveness? Or is the argument that their very presence in the confessional shews suffificient penitence? Are penitence and a purpose of amendment separate entities or so entwined that one implies at at least an iota of the other?
Eh, I believe there are sternly vulgar curse words in all languages. Some may translate most accurately to the "f-word" in English. Let's hope whomever reported this..exaggerated.
ReplyDeleteAnd another lexicographic note :-
ReplyDeleteChingar according to the Royal Spanish Academy
According to the Royal Academy of Spanish Language the transitive verb chingar comes from the Caló language čingarár that means to fight. The first three meanings given by the Academy are:
1. to importune, disturb
2. to have sex (offensive)
3. to frequently have wine or drinks (colloquial)
Years ago, the Daily Mail reported:
ReplyDelete“ While giving his weekly blessing from the Vatican, the Argentinian mistakenly uttered the word 'f***' in Italian before quickly correcting himself.
But within seconds his mistake was posted on dozens of Italian media websites and YouTube and had gained millions of worldwide hits as it went viral.
The words the Pope stumbled on were 'caso' (example) and 'cazzo' which means 'f***' in Italian and often trips up those not used to speaking the language.”
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2572086/Pope-accidentally-says-f-Sunday-blessing-getting-Italian-wrong.html
Schoolboys insisting that their teacher had said a bad word
How shocking if it were to turn out that he did say it. It would be a most undignified way to allude to anyone - let alone to the Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship.
ReplyDeleteif we see that there is no intention to repent, we must forgive all. We can never deny absolution because we become a vehicle for an evil, unjust, and moralistic judgment"
ReplyDeleteThat is interestingly at variance with his insistence that priests in Southern Italy should refuse Absolution to known or suspected mafiosi, even when they avow penitence and a purpose of amendment.
Quite the theological chameleon.
There are many things to criticize about the Holy Father.
ReplyDeleteThe use of vulgar language with no 2nd commandment or self-maledictory issue attached to is not one of them. I do not usually go for hyperboles that are, taken strictly, not true, but isn't there still something in Oscar Wilde's saying "The Church (meaning, er, Catholic as opposed to Anglican) is for saints and sinners; she has no place for respectable people"? (As I said, it's not, strictly, true, though.)
In my view, actually, the one reason that justfies - but then one reason really does justify a thing - teaching children that those words are bad, foul and nasty is that when the, as they call it, feces really do hit the fan and only something bad, foul and nasty will do, they still have can resort to something that is all that but not a sin.
Yes, it is nevertheless mildly out of place when a Pope says them knowing they would be recorded. Sure. But things mildly out of place I can choose not to care about, especially being not the Pope's confessor; which would probably be a wise choice even in a situation where all the rest were fine. But all the rest is not fine; so, the question is not whether one chooses to care but whether one has the capacity to care.
In reply to those who think the focus should be on the issue of absolution, you are, of course, correct. However, this is FrH's blog and he blogs about whatever he wants. He's a classicist and that's the gift he brings to the party. The outrageous absolution issue will, no doubt, be addressed by many in the blogosphere and beyond, but that does not detract from the seriousness of whether Pope Pottymouth I has been misrepresented in translation, and if so, by whom and why. If there is any accuracy in the report that he has moved on from being Pottymouth to Pope Foulmouth I, then I'd wonder about his mental state. And that opens a whole new can of worms...
ReplyDeleteHaving, along with his Secretary of State, sold the Church in China to the Communists, having persecuted traditionalist Catholics, having done what he could to persecute/suppress the Latin Mass, having worshipped Pachamama, having said adultery is compatible with receiving the Eucharist, having promoted active homosexuals, a few obscenities are as "drops of water in the comprehensive ocean" which is Pope Francis.
ReplyDeleteDear father: en Argentina el vocablo J O D E R tiene una acepción menos grosera que en España, donde significa directamente el acto carnal. En Argentina significa molestar, estorbar, poner obstáculos. No obstante, es una palabra de uso restringido a las personas de más confianza, pero en modo alguno adecuada para que el Santo Padre se dirija así a un grupo de seminaristas de Barcelona.
ReplyDelete