20 October 2019

Vatican Gardens Event

There's a lot of hot air on the internet, following the Vatican Gardens Event. I noticed one in particular by a person saying that he could not say AMEN to a prayer for the pope. I would like to make a technical point: the Te igitur of the Roman Canon does not pray for the pope, still less does it in some way glorify him; it expresses our sacramental communio with him. I do that each morning with determination.

I propose to start deleting proffered comments which angrily attack PF for the VGE.

What I would like to see is a careful exegesis by some academically qualified person who is expert in the 'indigenous' religions of Amazonia, of what PF did at the VGE I shall not accept comments which woffle angrily. It would need to rely on a precise and evidenced account of what actually happened.

Our great Anglican mystagogue Dom Gregory Dix used to assert (e.g. Shape pp 24-26) that during the early persecutions Apostasy by a cleric meant that he had irremediably lost his Orders. I would like to see accounts by academically qualified writers of how this matter stands, historically and theologically.

Please do not waste your time or mine writing in with your own strong views unless you are academically competent.

11 comments:

Amateur Brain Surgeon said...

the Te igitur of the Roman Canon does not pray for the pope, still less does it in some way glorify him; it expresses our sacramental communio with him

Dear Father. Thank you. It is a wonder to behold soi disant traditionalists claiming they can not in good conscience assist at a Mass that uses this prayer - there are more than a few who maintain this - but they never accuse themselves of schism for that refusal.

Tradition, sadly, is rarely applied to ones' own actions but a useful club with which to beat others.

AMalek said...

Regarding the prayer to be ‘in communion’ with the pope, isn’t that the reason the person didn’t want to say Amen??

Feed Room Five said...

I would think that the much more troubling matter of the Amazon Synod is the financing by the pro-abortion Ford Foundation. However, it is not clear that Pope Francis was informed about this funding.

Donna Bethell said...

I am not academically credentialed in either theology or world religions. I studied only physics and law, where I was encouraged to look dispassionately at facts and to test hypotheses. I have just read an article by Julia Yost in the November issue of First Things in which she describes St. John Henry Newman's pre-conversion attempt to square the Thirty-nine Articles with Catholicism, or at least Anglo-Catholicism. In particular he argued that Article 31, which denies the sacrificial nature of the Mass, could be read to allow the sacrificial nature of the Mass. He later admitted that his extremely esoteric method, which as a practical matter closed the proper understanding of doctrine to the non-intelligentsia, was not acceptable. It was not Catholic. The doctrines of the Church must be accessible even to the unlettered, provided they are given a firm and comprehensible catechesis.

And so I come to the scene in the Vatican Gardens. To my uncredentialed eye, a circle of people on their knees with their faces to the ground and their rumps in the air, shaking rattles and offering food and candles to a wooden figure of a naked pregnant woman, is not Catholic. As various Vatican officials when questioned have declined to give us a consistent explanation of the event, I will maintain my conclusion that it was an outrageous in-your-face act of idolatry which has continued in St. Peter's Basilica, a neighboring church, and the Synod Hall itself, set up in front of the Pope. Have at it, O Learned Credentialed Ones, demonstrate that I am wrong.

MaryP said...

I have read testimonies by indigenous people who are now Catholic. I would trust them more than academics. And a testimony by a witch. Not sure I would trust her, even if erudite. I have read "articles" also. It doesn't really matter. Bowing down and incensing a leaf or a chocolate cake would be just as idolatrous.

Matt said...

Is there an English translation of the ceremony that occurred in the Vatican gardens? It seems to me that the exegesis you're asking for may not be necessary if the words of the ceremony are released for public scrutiny. It may provide the needed context to understand what exactly took place. Text without context is pretext.

Aqua said...

Jesus Christ and His Church belong to everyone, not just the learned and suave.

It’s your blog. Block away.

However ... There is a crisis in the Church right now. It is so overwhelming in its intensity and perversity, perhaps you have lost track of how bad it really is. It is affecting the salvation of souls. Millions of them. Not to mention the abominations against God. It is a crisis never seen before. Don’t forget that, Father.

To paraphrase Stalin:

“One death is murder. 1,000,000 deaths is a statistic.”

One heresy is an abomination. 1,000 heresies are a blip.

Kathleen1031 said...

I have an advanced degree, but not in Theology, thank God.
I agree with Aqua. This is unprecedented, as bad as it gets unless tomorrow they commit sodomy on the altar or sacrifice a child. They still have a few days left.

PM said...

Before we get carried away with the question of Ford Foundation funding (how's that for alliteration?), what about the Koch brothers whose stance on life issues is also, I gather, less than perfect?

Lazarus Gethsemane said...

"What I would like to see is a careful exegesis by some academically qualified person who is expert in the 'indigenous' religions of Amazonia, of what PF did at the VGE I shall not accept comments which woffle angrily. It would need to rely on a precise and evidenced account of what actually happened"


*sigh* Really? I mean REALLY?

If you need some learned group of pharisees with their esoteric knowledge from on high to explain to you what your laying eyes have just been witnessing for over 6 long years - then you need to sit down with Our Lord's Own words and contemplate the humble gift of discernment that He gave to His humble laity:

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?" ~ Matthew 7:15-16

You will note that Our Lord gave NO EXCEPTIONS for the judgement of any prelates OR of Peter himself.

ALL of this insane circular reasoning and cognitive dissonance to somehow whitewash an abject heretic and apostate who is clearly roosting on the Chair of Peter and driving a wrecking ball through the very bones of The Bride of Christ - NEEDS TO STOP.

The faithful can clearly see it. And the reason it was allowed to happen IN THE FIRST PLACE was because the elite pharisees on high who ARE the Modernist heretics of Vatican II - have told the laity that they are too stupid to understand the subtleties of "Canon Law". WHICH BTW - has been redefined in modern times to make sure NO ONE is ever officially recognized with committing heresy or apostasy - much less prosecuted for it. And if you read the over-complex minutia of determining intent in modern canon law - you will ultimately realize that it requires that the very heart and mind of the heretic to be clearly read before any charges can be levied against him or her. Which of course is IMPOSSIBLE. Which itself reveals that the entire "legalistic" paradigm is a complete ruse.

AGAIN Our Lord gives counsel directly to His unwashed unlearned sheep:

“Behold, I am sending you like sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and simple as doves." ~ Matthew 10:16

What this all really comes down to is this: The vast majority of the clergy are too cowardly to openly challenge and reject this tyrant antipope for fear of reprisals. And the LAST thing these hirelings need is for the humble ignorant laity to DO THE JOB THESE HIRELINGS REFUSE TO DO WHICH REQUIRES STANDING UP TO THIS ANTICHRIST.

So the hirelings do what cowards always do - they attack the righteous brave for exposing their self-centered cowardice.

Let's just recap shall we? The REAL reason the Church is in the decrepit state that it is - is because of the morally bankrupt and cowardly clergy. And they are the last people that need to be lecturing anyone at this point.

MaryP said...

I have degrees in theology and have studied preclassical myth and rite. And have read enough history to know that the early Christians refused to perform token acts of worship to symbolic images and were killed for it. We don't bow to fertility symbols. Even syncretistic ones made by Amazonians after Andean models at the incitement of Germans.