I think a name should soon be given to the Ordinariate of Great Britain. Because the word Ordinariate is a nasty unEnglish and canonical term; and common folk like me do better with something more personal and user-friendly. My preference would be: "Society of Ss Hilda and Wilfrid" (Ladies First is an important principle). Many people, I know, assume that Bl John Henry will come into it (if he does, I suggest that the Ordinary, for ordinations and appropriate Ordinariate events, should ask to borrow one of the three English Oratories). I would not object to "Ss George and Andrew and David". Then, just as the Monarch's arms vary in England and Scotland (in England the three lions passant guardant of the King of England are in the senior quarter; in Scotland, the lion rampant of the King of Scots), so it could be the Society of S George in England ... etc.. Our Blessed Lady, whose Dowry England is, would be always popular, perhaps in combination with Blessed John Henry. S Theodore ... a Greek speaking Syrian monk appointed Archbishop of Canterbury by a Pope of Rome ... always seems to me a wonderfully significant individual, but he would mystify the media.
I entertain a lingering hope, certain not to be realised, that the old names of Ebbsfleet and Richborough, bound up with the arrival of S Augustine here in the first days of English Christianity, might survive as names of a couple of the deaneries into which it will be divided. They are already names encrusted with sacred memories.
Whatever the Ordinariate is to be, it could do with being announced promptissimo.
I may delete unbecoming suggestions on the thread ...
Society of Blessed Pius IX?
ReplyDeleteWhat about adding St. Patrick for the northern or even all of the second largest Isle? This would accommodate the many ordinariate bound Anglo-Irish . . . eventually.
ReplyDeletePerhaps the C of I would make do with Christ Church Cathedral in Dublin and turn St. Patrick's over to the ordinatiate . . . Just dreaming.
I think the idea of a 'society' is not appropriate as it is a clerical concept and only speaks of the incardination of clergy (e.g. SSPX, FSSP etc.). In such cases, the lay faithful are not part of the 'society' and have no formal canonical relationship with it.
ReplyDeleteAll dioceses have patrons, so there are many possibilities there. What is not clear at this stage is how geographically based these structures will be. For instance, will they have cathedrals? If so, some geographical reference in the title may be appropriate.
Thomas More and John Fisher, the original Anglo-Papalists?
ReplyDelete"Our Blessed Lady, whose Dowry England is, would be always popular, perhaps in combination with Blessed John Henry."
ReplyDeleteWhat a fantastic idea, Newman's reply to Dr. Pusey's Eirenicon would provide ample inspiration!
Peregrinus, isn't it fascinating how silence reigns in relation to the Ordinariate and Ireland, not a peep from Arbp. Martin so far, to my knowledge. Have you heard otherwise?
Things will get more interesting in CoI when Arbp. Neill's successor is announced. One imagines that Bp. Burrows (Cashel) would be a very popular choice, although perhaps it's Bp. Colton's (Cork) turn?
The appointment of, say, Cashel's successor will be most interesting. Watch that space for potentially the first woman bishop in these isles.
The silence with regards to the Ordinariates and Ireland is hardly surprising. AC's existence is barely known and even if it was well known the number of Irish Anglicans actually interested in joining it could be counted on one hand (and that's including the tiny TAC congregations).
ReplyDeleteThe CoI is 80% Evangelical and 20% Liberal (and not even High Church Liberal either). Irish Anglo-Catholics essentially do not exist bar isolated individuals, though there is a few High Church Protestants.
Any Ordinariate presence would likely be a mission or deanery of the English Ordinariate primarily constituting of ex-pats, sympathetic local RC trads and the odd rare local Anglo-Catholic (I believe Fr. Tomlinson has a semi-regular commenter on his blog who falls into the latter category. He posts under the nom de plume Apostolic and rather surprisingly is a Northerner).
Jakian Thomist forgets the claims of the Most Reverend Richard Clarke, Bishop of Meath and Kildare and thus senior of the Bishops after the Archbishops.
ReplyDeleteThis learned and prayerful prelate worshipped at All Saints Margaret Street when at university at King's College, London.
With regard to the next Archbishop of Dublin, I think there is little point in speculating. I am quite sure that when the time comes for the decision the relevant parties will prayerfully consider the abilities of the candidates and make their choice based on the needs of the diocese, the province, and the wider Church.
ReplyDeleteWith regard to Ireland and the Ordinariate issue: while I'm not sure I'd agree with Conchur's estimate of the CofI being 80% Evangelical, I can't argue with him re. Anglo-Cathlics being ratehr thin on the ground. The idea of joining an ordinariate hasn't had all that much discussion here as far as I'm aware - not least, I suggest, because there's such a lot of cultural identity bound up with one's membership of being part of the CofI.
Peregrinus made the interesting suggestion that the CofI might be willing to hand over St Patrick's to any ordinariate formed ... that sounds unlikely ... but they might be willing to part with the Dean of St Patrick's ...
In memory of the late, great, orthodox, John Pattison, who holidayed in Kerry and worshipped in one of my churches, I think Christ Church Dublin should be handed over to the Ordinariate. The High Altar Tabernacle left there by our Late Sovereign Lord King James II (mouldering in the crypt until recently) could be brought back into use.
ReplyDeleteI'd quite like to be Dean.
The late Very Rev John Paterson in fact dear father - but even Homer nods.
ReplyDeleteI for one would be delighted to see you Dean of Christ Church Dublin ( or another of the same name closer to your home ).
Fr Levi will acknowledge that even in his own diocese very few churches have the Eucharist as their main Sunday Morning Service; the Cathedral, St Anne Shandon certainly have. I have hope that my esteemed successor at Youghal has maintained it there. But three churches in a diocese ( and that a led by a Bishop who is a Sacramentalist ) shows how very different is the situation in Ireland.
I know of no beneficed cleric in the Church of Ireland who rejects the priestly ordination of women and only one or two among the retired clergy. It is simply not an issue there. To whom would the Ordinariate appeal?
Youghal continues with the Eucharist as the main Sunday service as far as I am aware. I think Bantry might be added to Nebuly's list also ... which is still not a lot, but I believe the majority of incumbants would be see the Eucharist as the main Sunday service as an ultimate goal ...
ReplyDeleteNebuly has very perceptively put his finger on a major reason why the Ordinariate idea has attracted very little interest in Ireland. The issue generated very little discussion here when it first arose and has all but been forgotten since. There might be a handful of lay people who would be attracted to an ordinariate in Ireland, but none of the clergy who are in situ seem interested.
Still, any UK ordinariate might see it as a mission opportunity - they'd have to send some clergy, but perhaps the CofI would be willing to let them borrow a church or two (it's not as if we don't have enough!) ... and it might become the natural home for some members of the RCC who have become 'unchurched' for various reasons over the last number of years ... a 'win-win' scenario for all concerned!
JT - I am not nearly so connected to the Irish Church as you. My ancestors are from Tipperary but I haven't visited in years though I keep an affectionate place in my heart and would love to attend Mass in an Anglo-Irish Ordinariate parish.
ReplyDeleteI bow to your selection for the south, Fr. H . . . though I like the idea of seeing Strongbow's tomb in an AO Irish Cathedral. I don't know either dean.
ReplyDeleteWhat about St. Anne's in Belfast for the AO? . . . That would be a bridge too far even for dreamers, I suspect.
Nebuly,
ReplyDeleteYou say "I know of no beneficed cleric in the Church of Ireland who rejects the priestly ordination of women". Are there not any hard-line Protestant Evangelicals (perhaps belonging to organisations such as Reform Ireland) who do? Though I'm not at all surprised that there should be none who do so for "catholic" reasons.
Any of the hard-line Protestants who have a problem with women bishops will not, of course, be going anywhere near the Ordinariate!!
for the benefit of those who commented on this thread previously, and might be interested in helping establish an Ordinariate presence in Ireland, I invite you to visit http://anirishordinariate.blogspot.ie/
ReplyDeletepax.