tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post8944517109813501088..comments2024-03-28T14:19:53.973+00:00Comments on Fr Hunwicke's Mutual Enrichment: Apostolicae curae todayFr John Hunwickehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17766211573399409633noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-71715126150987211802013-10-13T06:45:42.473+01:002013-10-13T06:45:42.473+01:00This is a rather interesting question. Would a par...This is a rather interesting question. Would a particular ordinands be able to face up to the accusation of invalid orders. If those order are in fact invalid, what does feelings have to do with it? Absolute truth would be more important I think. How many pastors of other denominations have given up much to be ordained as Catholic ministers in the Roman and Eastern Catholic Rites? The truth Jonathan Lee Chinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08312197974716357627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-32027196686705790372010-10-07T17:35:59.273+01:002010-10-07T17:35:59.273+01:00Mgr Wadsworth's latest comment is very helpful...Mgr Wadsworth's latest comment is very helpful. I am sorry if my reference to Eastern Catholics ordinariates has caused confusion.<br /><br />But it is interesting to note that priests who are Apostolic Administrators or Apostolic Prefects do have the right to (some of) the insignia of episcopal office.<br /><br />No doubt, when the Ordinariates become a reality, Rome will issue norms which The Flying Dutchmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10057552757013226176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-17386570653800800742010-10-07T03:27:23.670+01:002010-10-07T03:27:23.670+01:00Eastern Churches have their own Code of Canon Law ...Eastern Churches have their own Code of Canon Law and for this reason no strict comparison between 'Ordinariates' is possible. The experience of Ordinariates in the Latin Rite at the present time, as I have suggested, is limited. There are, however, a number of other juridical circumstrictions that already exist such as Apostolic Administrations, Apostolic Prefectures and a Personal Mgr Andrew Wadsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12821521091262543139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-45039326289868060532010-10-06T13:54:12.000+01:002010-10-06T13:54:12.000+01:00Steve Cavanaugh's post is helpful and mostly c...Steve Cavanaugh's post is helpful and mostly correct. He is right in point out that the word "Ordinariate" is used in different contexts. However, an Ordinariate can be a particular Church. The Ordinariate for Armenian Catholics in Eastern Europe is definitely a particular Church within the Armenian Catholic Church. It is headed by a titular Archbishop living in Armenia and claims The Flying Dutchmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10057552757013226176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-36960639362341986142010-10-06T12:50:55.147+01:002010-10-06T12:50:55.147+01:00"Ordinariate" is not a univocal term; mi..."Ordinariate" is not a univocal term; military ordinariates are not particular churches, and it doesn't seem that the Eastern Catholic ordinariates are particular churches either; rather they are set up to give pastoral and juridical identity to parishes which do not have a hierarchy in their territory (see <a href="http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=13463.0" Steve Cavanaughhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03021781365974293126noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-82932177138991138552010-10-06T12:16:09.858+01:002010-10-06T12:16:09.858+01:00That is true for the United States.
But there are...That is true for the United States.<br /><br />But there are in fact Ordinariates for Eastern Catholics in Argentina, Austria, Brazil, Eastern Europe, France, Greece (Armenian Catholics), Poland, and Romania (<i>Annuario Pontificio 2010</i>, pp. 1036-1039). There is also an Ordinary for Byzantine Catholics in Russia (p. 748).The Flying Dutchmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10057552757013226176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-40559696724275953182010-10-06T12:14:47.157+01:002010-10-06T12:14:47.157+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.The Flying Dutchmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10057552757013226176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-83561065942464749992010-10-06T10:29:53.818+01:002010-10-06T10:29:53.818+01:00Eastern Catholics have Eparchies not Ordinariates....Eastern Catholics have Eparchies not Ordinariates. Our only current experience of Ordinariates is with the Armed Forces.Mgr Andrew Wadsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12821521091262543139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-40605224405950750352010-10-06T01:10:54.490+01:002010-10-06T01:10:54.490+01:00I cannot agree that Anglicanorum Coetibus does not...I cannot agree that <i>Anglicanorum Coetibus</i> does not create particular Churches, if this is premised on the idea that personal Ordinariates for Eastern Catholics are not particular Churches. <i>Orientalium Dignitas</i>, <i>Orientalium Ecclesiarum</i> and <i>Orientale Lumen</i> all refute this premise. Each church governs itself accroding to its norms, as recognized by the supreme authority The Flying Dutchmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10057552757013226176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-56743482902095110092010-10-05T23:32:53.822+01:002010-10-05T23:32:53.822+01:00I believe that the term LBS is searching for is &q...I believe that the term LBS is searching for is "particular" not "peculiar" (although who is to say if some might be peculiar as well?).<br /><br />Bishop Arrieta, of the Pontifical Council for the Interpretation of Legistlative Texts (whew!), in his <a href="http://www.anglicanuse.org/conf-pdfs/Arrieta-Personal%20Ordinariates.pdf" rel="nofollow">address to the Anglican Use Steve Cavanaughhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03021781365974293126noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-66794542714659051962010-10-05T22:43:36.286+01:002010-10-05T22:43:36.286+01:00As I read AC there will be only one ordinariate, a...As I read AC there will be only one ordinariate, and therefore only one ordinary, in the territory of each Conference of Bishops. In terms of practicality he will need vicegerents to confirm etc in the far flung corners of his jurisdiction, and these are likely to be some or all of the former Anglican bishops.motupropriohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06261356560114077508noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-39049188001863358832010-10-05T22:32:25.797+01:002010-10-05T22:32:25.797+01:00"Or is the obsession with the inviolability o..."Or is the obsession with the inviolability of diocesan boundaries a distinctively Anglican fetish?"<br /><br />I don't see the point Fr William is trying to make here. The whole point of the Ordinariate scheme is that diocesan boundaries are not inviolable. In the Catholic Church, this is nothing new. In Britain, there are already the Bishopric of the Forces and the Apostolic The Flying Dutchmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10057552757013226176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-1036449861060809692010-10-05T21:45:15.964+01:002010-10-05T21:45:15.964+01:00Interesting question, LBS. Will the churches of th...Interesting question, LBS. Will the churches of the Ordinariate – or, more probably, the buildings that the Ordinariate is briefly, for the purpose of its particular liturgical function, borrowing, whether from the RCC, the CofE or elsewhere – be deemed to be, at any rate for the duration of the liturgy, outside the territory of the diocese? Can anyone tell us whether that is spelled out in Williamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16010105719301587195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-71290974155761724682010-10-05T21:33:06.777+01:002010-10-05T21:33:06.777+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.Williamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16010105719301587195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-2023410973855515382010-10-05T21:28:22.403+01:002010-10-05T21:28:22.403+01:00I do see the point that Fr William is making. Howe...I do see the point that Fr William is making. However, it will be for the Holy See to recognize those former Anglican Bishops who will be allowed to use pontificals. They will no doubt be persons who will make a positive contribution to Catholic unity.<br /><br />May I remind you that there are genuine, real Bishops who cause scandal and confusion too, such as one Emmanuel Milingo?The Flying Dutchmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10057552757013226176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-10663665978935874042010-10-05T20:49:28.271+01:002010-10-05T20:49:28.271+01:00" ... a non-episcopal personage prancing arou..." ... a non-episcopal personage prancing around in <i>his</i> territory ..."<br />But will it be <i>his</i> territory? I thought an Ordinariate would be a peculiar jurisdiction, if that is the right term.Little Black Sambohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16699227938165106710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-10127660823795443122010-10-05T20:44:47.223+01:002010-10-05T20:44:47.223+01:00The operative expression here is "equivalent ...The operative expression here is "equivalent status". That does not amount to recognising episcopal orders in all but name.<br /><br />Around where I minister, we are beset with people (of both sexes) who claim episcopal orders on various dodgy grounds. This is becoming a real pastoral problem: I have lost members of my congregation who, having met someone with a purple shirt and a Williamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16010105719301587195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-12162303876951682382010-10-05T20:19:32.926+01:002010-10-05T20:19:32.926+01:00Non-bishops also attend the Bishops' Conferenc...Non-bishops also attend the Bishops' Conference from time to time, for instance if the caretaker of a diocese (or, more likely, a military ordinariate) during its vacancy is not in episcopal orders. He ceases to do so as soon as a new bishop is appointed (or continue to do so if he himself is now in episcopal orders).Enrico Dantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12225046023754109591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-77153894134866609022010-10-05T19:48:22.627+01:002010-10-05T19:48:22.627+01:00"This makes it clear that former Anglican Bis..."This makes it clear that former Anglican Bishops will be treated as retired Catholic Bishops all but in name."<br /><br />Well, treated as such <i>at meetings of the Bishops’ Conference</i>. No suggestion at all that it will apply beyond that narrow context.Williamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16010105719301587195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-33788324346406301782010-10-05T19:21:53.340+01:002010-10-05T19:21:53.340+01:00It is also worth noting that the Norms state that ...It is also worth noting that the Norms state that "[a] former Anglican Bishop who belongs to the Ordinariate may be invited to participate in the meetings of the Bishops’ Conference of the respective territory, with the equivalent status of a retired bishop."<br /><br />This makes it clear that former Anglican Bishops will be treated as retired Catholic Bishops all but in name.The Flying Dutchmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10057552757013226176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-89143941396051838412010-10-05T19:12:58.781+01:002010-10-05T19:12:58.781+01:00In the final analysis, we Catholics will have to c...In the final analysis, we Catholics will have to come to terms with the fact that some of the Bishops and presbyters who are received into the Catholic Church under the provisions of <i>Anglicanorum Coetibus</i> may in fact be genuine Bishops and presbyters. This much was acknowledged when the late Mgr Graham Leonard was conditionally ordained.<br /><br />That said, all who are received should beThe Flying Dutchmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10057552757013226176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-6507446922599639252010-10-05T19:08:41.159+01:002010-10-05T19:08:41.159+01:00Given that Ordinaries who are presbyters will have...Given that Ordinaries who are presbyters will have jurisdiction, there is no reason why they should not be allowed pontificals in accordance with <i>Sacrosanctum Concilium</i> 130.The Flying Dutchmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10057552757013226176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-13497186747783660102010-10-05T19:06:37.583+01:002010-10-05T19:06:37.583+01:00As Fr William points out, the norms do state that ...As Fr William points out, the norms do state that "[a] former Anglican Bishop who belongs to the Ordinariate and who has not been ordained as a bishop in the Catholic Church, may request permission from the Holy See to use the insignia of the episcopal office."<br /><br />Thus, this is a privilege which will be granted on a case-by-case basis. No doubt the competent authority will The Flying Dutchmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10057552757013226176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-31597274461949341452010-10-05T17:39:43.807+01:002010-10-05T17:39:43.807+01:00I think Mgr Wadsworth is being very diplomatic. Th...I think Mgr Wadsworth is being very diplomatic. The envisaged situation seems to me to be mere fantasy. <br /><br />What the Complementary Norms actually state is as follows:<br /><i>A former Anglican Bishop who belongs to the Ordinariate and who has not been ordained as a bishop in the Catholic Church, may request permission from the Holy See to use the insignia of the episcopal office.</i><br /Williamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16010105719301587195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-47603520993483736792010-10-05T17:35:49.630+01:002010-10-05T17:35:49.630+01:00This is a very interesting topic.
According to Va...This is a very interesting topic.<br /><br />According to Vatican II "[i]t is fitting that the use of pontificals be reserved to those ecclesiastical persons who have episcopal rank or some particular jurisdiction" (<i>Sacrosanctum Concilium</i> 130). Pope Paul VI codified this in his Motu Proprio <i>Pontificalia Insignia</i> of 21 June 1968. According to this the only presbyters who The Flying Dutchmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10057552757013226176noreply@blogger.com