tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post8876614569055434295..comments2024-03-28T14:19:53.973+00:00Comments on Fr Hunwicke's Mutual Enrichment: SSPX and UnityFr John Hunwickehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17766211573399409633noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-45231210904249268582015-03-27T18:03:48.663+00:002015-03-27T18:03:48.663+00:00Matthew Rose,
“but it also stated that "all ...Matthew Rose,<br /><br />“but it also stated that "all those who formally adhere to the schism" are excommunicated. If that does not include SSPX members (i.e. clerics, they have no lay members) then pray tell who exactly does it include?”<br /><br />The key here is “formally.” Formal vs material is a very important distinction in schism and heresy. Only those member of the Society Wine in the Waterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16142633311407145793noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-34971985587462896002015-03-27T17:58:21.292+00:002015-03-27T17:58:21.292+00:00gabrielsyme303,
“He said there was a "de fac...gabrielsyme303,<br /><br />“He said there was a "de facto schism" - this in fact is a meaningless term, which has no standing in canon law.”<br /><br />It may be an imprecise term, but it certainly isn’t meaningless. It aligns quite well with the difference between material and formal schism. Canon Law clearly defines schism - in a way that is hard not to apply to the SSPX - while Wine in the Waterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16142633311407145793noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-35257301773779712462015-03-26T21:00:03.937+00:002015-03-26T21:00:03.937+00:00Father Hunwicke,
(Presuming that the following wa...Father Hunwicke,<br /><br />(Presuming that the following was all valid, as the Vatican and neo-Catholics maintain): The 1988 decree of excommunication explicitly declared excommunicate the six Bishops in question, but it also stated that "all those who formally adhere to the schism" are excommunicated. If that does not include SSPX members (i.e. clerics, they have no lay members) then Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13240425842855092083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-22252286698112962152015-03-26T19:13:26.530+00:002015-03-26T19:13:26.530+00:00Adrian,
You are incorrect that Cardinal Mueller &...Adrian,<br /><br />You are incorrect that Cardinal Mueller "definitely stated" that the SSPX is in schism.<br /><br />He said there was a "de facto schism" - this in fact is a meaningless term, which has no standing in canon law. It is typical of the vague and meaningless terms certain prelates use to attempt to undermine the SSPX.<br /><br />Another example of this is the Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-13563667215447450982015-03-24T22:52:06.552+00:002015-03-24T22:52:06.552+00:00I don't think there is really any doubt from c...I don't think there is really any doubt from canon law. Confirmations performed by clergy without faculties and weddings witnessed by clergy without faculties are invalid. Confessions heard by clergy without faculties, except in case of danger of death, are valid but illicit.<br /><br />SSPX clergy are validly ordained, but they have no faculties (their bishops are also validly ordained, Wine in the Waterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16142633311407145793noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-27385176057706923092015-03-22T21:56:18.724+00:002015-03-22T21:56:18.724+00:00therethereFr John Hunwickehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17766211573399409633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-52211132247491782812015-03-22T21:55:38.925+00:002015-03-22T21:55:38.925+00:00People should be wary of dilemmas which can have v...People should be wary of dilemmas which can have very sharp horns. If SSPX are Separated Brethren, they should be treated as Vatican II suggested SB should be treated. If they are not Separated Brethren, they are not ... separated. Or is their some crafty category of people who are neither Separated nor Unseparated?Fr John Hunwickehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17766211573399409633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-70841793520937548972015-03-22T21:06:18.661+00:002015-03-22T21:06:18.661+00:00With all due respect, the Melkites and the Salvati...With all due respect, the Melkites and the Salvation Army are a red herring. The SSPX are people who have of their own volition and fully aware of what they were doing separated themselves from the Holy See by the deliberate action of performing illict ordinations or associating themselves with those who have done so. Cardinal Müller as Prefect of the CDF and President of Ecclesia Dei stated Adrianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15533152787340723191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-70517864126044782482015-03-21T22:43:20.348+00:002015-03-21T22:43:20.348+00:00"..why SSPX should be called Schismatics whil..."..why SSPX should be called Schismatics while Calvinists and the Salvation Army don't have their noses rubbed in the S-word?"<br />Because God has sent the world a strong delusion, or if you prefer Douay-Rheims, the operation of error. 2 Thess: 11-12. The more I study, the more appalled I am by heresy under our noses for decades that people don't notice because they do not Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11974177636805657825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-86361174444470174792015-03-21T20:36:18.074+00:002015-03-21T20:36:18.074+00:00Even their bishops are no lomger excommunicate: ho...Even their bishops are no lomger excommunicate: how can those who go to their chapels be schismatics? Are you sure you've got this right? I mean, 'right' in terms of Canon Law?<br /><br />But assuming you have, OK, fair enough ... and could you remind us what "the way back" was for the Melkites, the Ukrainians?<br /><br />And, incidentally, if they are schismatics, can you Fr John Hunwickehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17766211573399409633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-48761894752058897702015-03-21T17:39:08.701+00:002015-03-21T17:39:08.701+00:00Presumably the way back into communion with the Ho...Presumably the way back into communion with the Holy See is exactly the same for these schismatics as it has been for any others throughout the history of the Church.Adrianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15533152787340723191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-60778898435667995412015-03-20T22:29:00.018+00:002015-03-20T22:29:00.018+00:00It has taken over 50 years to unravel the Catholic...It has taken over 50 years to unravel the Catholic church, and bring her to her current crisis. The crisis is not ended as of yet. If the main body of the church decided to amend its difficulties, to stave off becoming worldly like, it make take a least another 50 years, or in short a devastating War to make amends. Simply put, if the main body can't fix itself, why bother the effort to Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08136784135669002899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-11093769439099957012015-03-20T20:53:43.550+00:002015-03-20T20:53:43.550+00:00Here is a naive question: is there anything preven...Here is a naive question: is there anything preventing a local bishop from just simply granting faculties to the SSPX priests within his territory?Anita Moorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11305092097247290243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-29618240919730242162015-03-20T13:58:12.130+00:002015-03-20T13:58:12.130+00:00Dear Father, you are both great hearted, and eiren...Dear Father, you are both great hearted, and eirenic in your suggestions. As always, also very reasonable and persuasive in your observations and suggestions. You ask: "Who would lose?"<br /> <br />In semitic fashion, I respond to your rhetorical question:<br />Would not the SSPX as a religious society be subject, in some measure, to the same dicastery which oversees the reformation of B flathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17611595580578224726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-30951623918633570532015-03-20T05:49:14.620+00:002015-03-20T05:49:14.620+00:00In my archdiocese (whose archbishop is part of Fra...In my archdiocese (whose archbishop is part of Francis's inner circle), the FSSP and ICKSP are banned for being too "divisive" but the local Franciscan friars (to mention only one example) openly participate in the annual 'Gay Pride' celebration.<br /><br />Our dear muddle-headed bishops don't realise that the best way to neutralise the hated SSPX is to create an Childermasshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08776870533065668580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-12345186820552249662015-03-20T01:51:46.844+00:002015-03-20T01:51:46.844+00:00Thank you for your excellent and balanced commenta...Thank you for your excellent and balanced commentary, Father. Hopefully, the tectonic plates that currently keep the SSPX and Rome askew will become joined once again - to the mutual enrichment of not only the SSPX and Rome, but of Catholicism as well.Dave Heathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14125219877561369565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-796217290385815402015-03-19T23:32:04.912+00:002015-03-19T23:32:04.912+00:00Ansgerus,
It wasn't the nature of the canonic...Ansgerus,<br /><br />It wasn't the nature of the canonical structure offered that brought the negotiations to a standstill. It was the preamble.Athelstanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07346012062816580296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-2666728687129726462015-03-19T22:28:41.366+00:002015-03-19T22:28:41.366+00:00Woody ... hello! ... but there is no question of e...Woody ... hello! ... but there is no question of excommunications resting on the SSPX or its lay associates. Not since Benedict XVI decided to remove that complication.Fr John Hunwickehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17766211573399409633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-91104835799005347372015-03-19T22:09:55.151+00:002015-03-19T22:09:55.151+00:00Rome did not offer Bishop Fellay the Status of an ...Rome did not offer Bishop Fellay the Status of an Ordinariate for the FSSPX, but only a personal prelature - and certainly is knowing well, why: personal prelatures according to Can. 297 need consent (not just consulting) of the local diocesan bishops for exercising any "pastoral or missionary activity". And for what reason should a modernist local bishop change his mind and allow the Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-56085405479688483292015-03-19T18:12:20.316+00:002015-03-19T18:12:20.316+00:00This makes perfect sense. Unfortunately I don'...This makes perfect sense. Unfortunately I don't see this happening. The leaders in the Church do not seem to be able to act rationally when it comes to issues like this, even when it would be in their interests to be pragmatic and go against their ideology. For example insisting on altar girls even though they know vocations primarily come through service at the altar while bemoaning the lackJohn Patrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17352405449391514146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-62152059829907508392015-03-19T18:01:35.621+00:002015-03-19T18:01:35.621+00:00I suppose your question was rhetorical, but an ans...I suppose your question was rhetorical, but an answer to "who loses" is warranted it is those who have invested in the Blessed John XXIII's policy of "Ostpolitik" and don't want to admit they made a bad investment. - Roratae Coeli have summed up the folly of such an attitude in a recent post: http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.co.uk/2015/03/Gadflyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07537123281964278798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-28129979205515418992015-03-19T17:16:24.684+00:002015-03-19T17:16:24.684+00:00This comment has been removed by the author.Gadflyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07537123281964278798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-55025028907792416252015-03-19T15:24:10.626+00:002015-03-19T15:24:10.626+00:00Thank you so much for this, Father. I do not atten...Thank you so much for this, Father. I do not attend an SSPX parish, but have great sympathy for them. I have no doubt they love the Church as much or more than many priests. When one considers how many dissenting priests, even those who openly shake their fists at Rome, remain in good standing, it is incomprehensible to see the draconian treatment of the SSPX. I pray that your kind and sensible Mary Ann Kreitzerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18245237845099708478noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-52006983745590403762015-03-19T14:39:41.406+00:002015-03-19T14:39:41.406+00:00It just seems to me that as easy as it sounds to d...It just seems to me that as easy as it sounds to do what you suggest, the hierarchy do not want such a Traditionalist group of priests within the walls of the Church. Such orders do not help with the progression of modernism. And the SSPX are right up front of how they feel towards the recent past and current situation in the Church. No, they must be kept out because they do not go forward. Woodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02461037782982511931noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-84150190137328391992015-03-19T14:13:02.809+00:002015-03-19T14:13:02.809+00:00Being a dummy myself, and lacking immediate access...Being a dummy myself, and lacking immediate access to the Navarra commentary on the Code of Canon Law, I found this link, which explains more clearly the current understanding of the status of the excommunicated person: http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/catholicism-excommunication-and-other-penalties.html<br /><br />All the best and keep up the good work, Father.Woodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08910654300435533408noreply@blogger.com