tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post8599781652386269431..comments2024-03-28T22:56:16.016+00:00Comments on Fr Hunwicke's Mutual Enrichment: LundFr John Hunwickehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17766211573399409633noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-77205983814184160992016-11-03T07:45:54.208+00:002016-11-03T07:45:54.208+00:00True enough, the restrictions Luther put on Real P...True enough, the restrictions Luther put on Real Presence were precisely there in order to EXCLUDE a sacrificial understanding of the Mass.Hans Georg Lundahlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055583255516264955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-59103128477809616842016-11-03T01:12:26.590+00:002016-11-03T01:12:26.590+00:00"In the absence of such a sacrificial underst...<br /> "In the absence of such a sacrificial understanding of the Eucharist the Lutheran notion of "presence" must be essentially different than that of orthodox Christians. If I'm mistaken in this, perhaps someone can correct me, but it does seem that once the idea of the Eucharist as a real sacrifice goes, then the idea of "presence" will also change drastically.&William Tighehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16634494183165592707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-19651001129745532502016-11-02T21:14:59.894+00:002016-11-02T21:14:59.894+00:00They do teach sacramental union, which is incorrec...They do teach sacramental union, which is incorrect and not the Orthodox belief at all. Matthew Rothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00958673318312786618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-22863231005852501232016-11-02T17:20:50.848+00:002016-11-02T17:20:50.848+00:00@ Hans Georg Lundahl
Perhaps one way of conceptu...@ Hans Georg Lundahl <br /><br />Perhaps one way of conceptualizing this might be as follows. The doctrinal formulations that we refer to as Real Presence and/or Transsubstantiation arose in the Church because the Eucharist is intimately associated with the Sacrifice of Calvary as a re-presentation of that Sacrifice in a non-bloody way. While the Orthodox may differ from us in some respects mark wauckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12847411975641738898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-15293590413180094902016-11-02T10:22:17.742+00:002016-11-02T10:22:17.742+00:00@ Schutz
"They don't teach transubstanti...@ Schutz<br /><br />"They don't teach transubstantiation, but neither do the Orthodox and we don't doubt their sincerity in this belief. Nor - for the record - did they ever teach 'consubtantiation'; that was a Catholic idea of Lutheran doctrine."<br /><br />Luther's formula was a restriced Real Presence without transsubstantiation. How real presence worked without Hans Georg Lundahlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055583255516264955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-74442353994071414762016-11-02T10:18:27.710+00:002016-11-02T10:18:27.710+00:00"I believe there is evidence that some Luther...<i>"I believe there is evidence that some Lutherans, not least in Sweden, are way out in some quasi-gnostic stratosphere where very little of the Christian God survives."</i><br /><br />I left Swedish Church, back then Swedish State Church, or Swedish Established Church (it was then disestablished, except for HMtheK in 2000) before <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antje_Jackel%C3%Hans Georg Lundahlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055583255516264955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-18270649159934790182016-11-02T09:54:46.585+00:002016-11-02T09:54:46.585+00:00We are many in the Church of Sweden who are alread...We are many in the Church of Sweden who are already Catholic in faith and practice and who would love to have an Ordinariate. But most of us would never identify ourselves as "Lutherans", most of us say we are "high church", "catholics within the Church of Sweden" or just "Church of Sweden".<br /><br />The more selfidentified orthodox Lutherans though wouldKyrkliga Betraktelserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03524643312061742720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-62845940287434090482016-11-02T06:22:24.009+00:002016-11-02T06:22:24.009+00:00Well, the idea — harboured by some — that Lutheran...Well, the idea — harboured by some — that Lutherans deny the Real Presence is unfair. I can only speak for the Swedish church, which espouses Concordia Pia, thus Formula Concordiae (Sol. Decl.) VII 9, "de Coena Domini in Confessione Augustana ex Verbo Dei sic docetur: verum corpus et sanguinem Christi vere, sub specie panis et vini, in Sacra Domini Coena praesentia esse, distribui et sumi; S. Guineforthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01816513035821322263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-91600328742382970772016-11-02T01:00:24.123+00:002016-11-02T01:00:24.123+00:00Personally I rejoice (with the Introit of the Mass...Personally I rejoice (with the Introit of the Mass) in today's glorious and all-important Feast of All Saints, in which we thank the Saints and Martyrs in heaven for their intercession for us on earth who pray to them: a belief and practice that was sternly rejected by the Protestant reformers - even though they dared not abolish the feast day itself.<br />I also look forward to the great John Vaschttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00335331585265267754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-83880366014682135662016-11-01T23:35:23.408+00:002016-11-01T23:35:23.408+00:00The "best" Lutherans out there that woul...The "best" Lutherans out there that would go for the actual teachings of the Church on moral issues might also be the most anti-Papal Lutherans imaginable. Take the Missouri Synod folks who sometimes jokingly refer to themselves as "Catholic without the Pope".<br /><br />As an ex-Lutheran myself, I know some who would, and some who wouldn't want anything to do with the Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-14585375996529453382016-11-01T19:32:41.433+00:002016-11-01T19:32:41.433+00:00Just to point out that historical confessional Lut...Just to point out that historical confessional Lutheranism shares faith in the real presence with the Catholic Church. They don't teach transubstantiation, but neither do the Orthodox and we don't doubt their sincerity in this belief. Nor - for the record - did they ever teach "consubtantiation"; that was a Catholic idea of Lutheran doctrine.<br /><br />As for an Ordinariate, Schutzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13786221181804480363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-30324897166013029252016-11-01T19:08:32.946+00:002016-11-01T19:08:32.946+00:00It might justly be said of Cranmer that, in his li...It might justly be said of Cranmer that, in his liturgical reforms, he left "little beyond the bare words of Institution." Luther left nothing beyond them, even, in his second essay at liturgical reform, the German Mass, ditching the Preface and Sanctus. In Sweden, the first essay at liturgical reform retained the Preface, adding the Words of Institution to it at its end, followed by William Tighehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16634494183165592707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-47961865188143935012016-11-01T16:43:55.430+00:002016-11-01T16:43:55.430+00:00@ Father Hunwicke,
Dear Father Hunwicke,
Thank y...@ Father Hunwicke,<br /><br />Dear Father Hunwicke,<br /><br />Thank you for your kind response, from which I take it that the group of 'worthy orthodox Lutherans' would be distinguished by discerning between:<br /><br />"He that is not with me, is against me: and he that gathereth not with me, scattereth." Matthew 12:30<br /><br />"John answered him, saying: Master, we sawLiam Ronanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01376666519733160167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-45702313639406142062016-11-01T16:06:05.684+00:002016-11-01T16:06:05.684+00:00It appears that the Lutherans restated their notio...It appears that the Lutherans restated their notions on the Eucharist--which are quite distinct from Catholic theology--in a pretty straightforward way. The expected references to "houses" and "tables" and "bread and wine" being shared at those tables in those houses ...<br /><br />The "Joint Statement" appears to address the situation of mixed marriages-mark wauckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12847411975641738898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-66452972545630269332016-11-01T15:46:03.335+00:002016-11-01T15:46:03.335+00:00Liam: a group which had moved beyond the Reformati...Liam: a group which had moved beyond the Reformation antinomies without embracing the Zeitgeist.Fr John Hunwickehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17766211573399409633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-347948962082103652016-11-01T15:33:58.832+00:002016-11-01T15:33:58.832+00:00I always have had a respect fro Anglo-Catholicism ...I always have had a respect fro Anglo-Catholicism [pre Vatican II era], similarly there exists Lutherans of a similar disposition - a "Lutheran Ordinariate" right on!Sixupmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12486627001579821658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-6142453567699657712016-11-01T15:19:43.994+00:002016-11-01T15:19:43.994+00:00Dear Father,
May I ask of you what your notion of...Dear Father,<br /><br />May I ask of you what your notion of a 'very worthy orthodox Lutheran' might be? Liam Ronanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01376666519733160167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-67998722860579564542016-11-01T14:54:56.390+00:002016-11-01T14:54:56.390+00:00As a former high church Lutheran myself I think a ...As a former high church Lutheran myself I think a Lutheran Ordinariate would be just the thing for many of my former coreligionists here i Scandinavia.<br /><br />I originally wanted to become Anglican, so a Scandinavian Anglican Ordinariate would sound like heaven on earth to me. Only a handful of Anglicans around here, unfortunately ; ).Marianahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08805433224633562648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-33278886660169541872016-11-01T14:33:34.998+00:002016-11-01T14:33:34.998+00:00Some questions regarding a putative Lutheran Ordin...Some questions regarding a putative Lutheran Ordinariate. As far as I know, in the Lutheran liturgy the Roman Canon has been utterly eviscerated well beyond what Cranmer did, leaving little beyond the bare words of Institution.<br /><br />Are there groups of Lutherans who, furtively or openly, supplement this rite with bits of the Roman Rite like the Anglo-Catholics did with the BCP? Do any Claudio Salvuccihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08831694822879009083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-49517596060958992162016-11-01T14:17:03.821+00:002016-11-01T14:17:03.821+00:00A proposal which, in the ear that matters, would e...A proposal which, in the ear that matters, would evoke the reaction of "Absurd! A sin against Ecumenism!" <br />Pluribus Annis pater dilecte!B flathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17611595580578224726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-17721991152033620022016-11-01T13:30:39.550+00:002016-11-01T13:30:39.550+00:00GKirkuk has an interesting take on Lund II.
He be...GKirkuk has an interesting take on <a href="https://ignatiushisconclave.org/2016/11/01/lund-ii/" rel="nofollow">Lund II</a>.<br /><br />He begins, like, totally blissed out: "Francis hasn’t said anything disastrous so far at the Reformationfest!" Oh joy! Oh happitude!<br /><br />But then he goes all dark:<br /><br />"But is the oft-repeated assertion, that more unites Catholics andmark wauckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12847411975641738898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-15461758150675300092016-11-01T13:10:20.913+00:002016-11-01T13:10:20.913+00:00perhaps relevant
https://youtu.be/0Nx8QqiADyw
perhaps relevant<br /><br />https://youtu.be/0Nx8QqiADyw<br />Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07358666316547259383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-37717174037403865962016-11-01T12:54:26.458+00:002016-11-01T12:54:26.458+00:00Actually it was announced by Cdl Muller at the tim...Actually it was announced by Cdl Muller at the time of the erection of the Anglican Ordinariates that Lutheran Ordinariates would be considered should expressions of interest be forthcoming from the Lutheran world. <br /><br />Sadly it seems that no such expressions have been forthcoming..jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00013650127156997140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-24449549646067594532016-11-01T12:37:37.462+00:002016-11-01T12:37:37.462+00:00Father, why exactly was Lund chosen?Father, why exactly was Lund chosen?Marco da Vinhahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06092410765851812842noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-56375546795484270832016-11-01T12:12:28.762+00:002016-11-01T12:12:28.762+00:00So the fact that "nothing horrendous" wa...So the fact that "nothing horrendous" was "actually ... done" makes you happy? Well, let me the first, or among the first, to offer you felicitations--with the caveat that happiness in such matters is bound to be a relative thing.mark wauckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12847411975641738898noreply@blogger.com