tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post8160393714890721647..comments2024-03-29T09:39:50.604+00:00Comments on Fr Hunwicke's Mutual Enrichment: SedevacantismFr John Hunwickehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17766211573399409633noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-57097840183904299542018-02-26T20:43:23.170+00:002018-02-26T20:43:23.170+00:00The response to the possibility of the Pope formal...The response to the possibility of the Pope formally teaching heresy that we simply leave the whole ugly affair for the Holy Ghost to correct seems to me both stating the obvious (of course the Third Person of the Holy Trinity will correct the savage attacks on the Mystical Body, even from popes) and echoing the pacifism (is it a form of the old quietism?) that appears to counsel abdication of coradcorloquiturhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07125381369456761748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-20933167335467483152018-02-25T19:21:59.268+00:002018-02-25T19:21:59.268+00:00Fr. Martin Fox, I think you have introduced an ele...Fr. Martin Fox, I think you have introduced an element that I had not noticed. We are, in effect, asking two different questions. You say, "'Please specify those things that a pope must do?' The answer, it seems to me, is exactly nothing." But from your explanation, your question really is: is there any duty incumbent on the pope the failure of which would cause him to cease toDonna Bethellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03889995101309151034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-64838666541304480102018-02-24T16:05:48.500+00:002018-02-24T16:05:48.500+00:00Mark Wauck:
Contra all the above, Fr. Martin Fox ...Mark Wauck:<br /><br /><i>Contra all the above, Fr. Martin Fox makes the remarkable assertion that there is "exactly nothing" that a pope--and therefore, since a pope is pope by virtue of being a bishop, any bishop--need do. Surely feeding the lambs, tending the sheep, strengthening his brothers must involve something more than "exactly nothing." I can only assume that Fr. FoxFr Martin Foxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01375628123126091747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-41407739364226413052018-02-23T18:54:51.238+00:002018-02-23T18:54:51.238+00:00My point extends to more than possibilities, moral...My point extends to more than possibilities, moral or physical. The Pope's jurisdiction (his authority to make law, to command obedience, as distinct from intellectual assent) is ordinary, universal, and Episcopal. I understand this to mean that he can exercise his Episcopal authority anywhere, in any diocese, in virtue of his office as successor of Peter. But can he do more than any other Don Camillo SSChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15181985690276317480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-82230457542566497472018-02-23T14:35:31.316+00:002018-02-23T14:35:31.316+00:00rick allen makes an important point. Since we now ...rick allen makes an important point. Since we now know beyond any cavil of a doubt that a duly elected pope (I accept for purposes of this comment Fr Hunwicke's stipulation) can launch a conspiracy "to undermine in advance the teaching of future popes. Strangling renascent orthodoxy before it has the chance to be born," we ought to be asking ourselves--with rick allen: Why not an mark wauckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12847411975641738898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-47390994308677317022018-02-23T03:12:33.556+00:002018-02-23T03:12:33.556+00:00Why leave the question at popes? What if an ecume...Why leave the question at popes? What if an ecumenical council makes a dogmatic statement I think is heretical? What if, in the fourth century, I genuinely and deeply believed that the homoousian was a seriously heretical departure from the apostolic faith?<br /><br />The Catholic Church is unlike any other because it claims an infallible magisterium. It claims that there is a divinely rick allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07612435616018593956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-44375029601696058432018-02-22T21:56:32.990+00:002018-02-22T21:56:32.990+00:00My pious hope is that the Holy Spirit would not pe...My pious hope is that the Holy Spirit would not permit such a thing as Father suggests.<br /><br />But my simple lawyer's answer is that we are not obliged to do anything that is impossible.<br /><br />If we cannot get to Mass, our Sunday obligation is removed for so long as the impossibility lasts. Similarly if it is impossible to remain in communion with the Pope, then our obligation to doRichardThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16761130714944237699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-91493896563601756032018-02-22T19:37:02.378+00:002018-02-22T19:37:02.378+00:00Surely there are more things than assent to heresy...Surely there are more things than assent to heresy that a Pope is not entitled to demand as a condition for communion with himself? Don Camillo SSChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15181985690276317480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-80662761067958412132018-02-22T18:26:51.107+00:002018-02-22T18:26:51.107+00:00I should add to the list of those who have been su...I should add to the list of those who have been summarily axed the underground Catholic Church in China. God help them.Donna Bethellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03889995101309151034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-73151159523793347482018-02-22T16:46:10.857+00:002018-02-22T16:46:10.857+00:00Dear Fr. Fox, you may wish to consult article 18 o...Dear Fr. Fox, you may wish to consult article 18 of the Chieti Declaration, which seems to imply, if not state outright, on the part of the Roman side as well as the Orthodox, that there has been no true ecumenical council since II Nicea in 787, thus depriving even Vatican I of supreme authority. Just sayin,Woodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08910654300435533408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-76693999357758265382018-02-22T16:24:28.580+00:002018-02-22T16:24:28.580+00:00With respect, Fr. Martin is not describing reality...With respect, Fr. Martin is not describing reality. Despite papal assurances, there is no such polite dialogue before the ax falls. Just ask the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate, the formerly Sovereign Military Order of Malta, the former members of the Pontifical Academy of Life, the former John Paul II Institute for Studies on Marriage and the Family, Cardinal Burke, Cardinal Müller, Donna Bethellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03889995101309151034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-53092836342959965682018-02-22T13:46:36.502+00:002018-02-22T13:46:36.502+00:00Two additional comments:
1) Another way to look a...Two additional comments:<br /><br />1) Another way to look at the Bergoglian papacy is from a common legal standpoint. I think it's fair to say that the papacy in a real sense has fiduciary responsibilities toward the Church. I think that's not an unfair reading of what Cajetan had in mind. Vatican I sets out what those responsibilities are as the Church has always believed them to be: tomark wauckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12847411975641738898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-77658187707942338762018-02-22T02:33:36.225+00:002018-02-22T02:33:36.225+00:00Every person has free will, to do good, or to do e...Every person has free will, to do good, or to do evil. <br /><br />I think that one must distinguish between Sedevacantism, which posits the abeyance of the Papal office, and the historical reality that some person might be a valid Pope, and be deposed, or might be an antipope, or (in theory) loose their office through willful heresy, or be a usurper. A usurper could even be ratified, and a validArthur Gallagherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13729734180689395101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-70048972969215525202018-02-22T01:57:10.494+00:002018-02-22T01:57:10.494+00:00Since our host Fr Hunwicke has invited us to go ou...Since our host Fr Hunwicke has invited us to go out on a limb, and having blathered on a bit already, I'll venture an opinion as to a "solution," with the understanding that a theory isn't a solution--a solution requires that action be taken.<br /><br />To start with, I will adopt everything Fr Hunwicke said in "Aidan Nichols, Amoris laetitia, and Tucho." To wit: theremark wauckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12847411975641738898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-49674777147166613352018-02-22T01:41:30.376+00:002018-02-22T01:41:30.376+00:00Full Disclaimer: I'm Eastern Orthodox so I obv...Full Disclaimer: I'm Eastern Orthodox so I obviously hold some opinions that most here will not agree with. However if I were a convicted Roman Catholic who was confronted by a Pope where there was compelling evidence that he was at the least what used to be known as a "material heretic" and who was clearly engaging in efforts to subvert the Deposit of the Faith, then my answer John (Ad Orientem)https://www.blogger.com/profile/14329907942477160166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-51240429324311323012018-02-22T00:44:58.341+00:002018-02-22T00:44:58.341+00:00Hello ABS -
I think you're in the wrong threa...Hello ABS -<br /><br />I think you're in the wrong thread... but where does Pope Benedict say that there has been an evolution of dogma ? He said we are facing an evolution of dogma, which is not at all the same as an evolution of dogma has occurred.Fred W.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02457297711864902911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-69567536098785391902018-02-21T23:31:30.885+00:002018-02-21T23:31:30.885+00:00Charles, thanks for your comment re the Cajetan qu...Charles, thanks for your comment re the Cajetan quote. To me, Cajetan's thinking remains of interest for at least two reasons. The first is that it's a legitimate question to ask: exactly how does Bergoglio view what we call "the Church" and his role with regard to "the Church?" He has dropped hints from time to time that indicate that his views are other than mark wauckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12847411975641738898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-50268422815323879592018-02-21T22:25:42.547+00:002018-02-21T22:25:42.547+00:00Back to the question at hand: what to do if, God f...Back to the question at hand: what to do if, God forbid, "a pope were, additionally, to require of every Catholic explicit assent ex animo to heresy as a necessary condition for Communion with himself"?<br /><br />My first response is to ask someone to explain how this is distinct from the pope formally teaching error, which is impossible according to the dogma of the Church on papal Fr Martin Foxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01375628123126091747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-63450762884844119652018-02-21T22:19:05.106+00:002018-02-21T22:19:05.106+00:00What happens when a pope ceases to act as a pope, ...<i>What happens when a pope ceases to act as a pope, as for example when he refuses to respond to to serious questions about the very basics of the Faith that are posed by serious and responsible authorities?</i><br /><br />The problem with a question like this comes with the follow-up, which is, "Please specify those things that a pope must do?" The answer, it seems to me, is exactly Fr Martin Foxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01375628123126091747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-79631881067420069702018-02-21T20:24:51.776+00:002018-02-21T20:24:51.776+00:00Dear Fred W. This is prolly not the place to discu...Dear Fred W. This is prolly not the place to discuss this but, for ABS, the problem is that not only does Bishop Emeritus Ratzinger concede there has been an evolution of dogma but he appears to defend such an evolution by referring to the particular circumstances of different times.<br /><br />ABS simply asks, is Dogma dependent on the people and their existence in a particular time and place orMick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-58306567501316283542018-02-21T18:32:11.064+00:002018-02-21T18:32:11.064+00:00Mark, that quote from Cajetan deals with a Pope wh...Mark, that quote from Cajetan deals with a Pope who sees himself not as the head of the Church but as the head of a state. My shoddy translation: "But should this happen in the mind of the Pope, if he doesn't want to communicate with the Church as a part, as its head in spiritual matters; but holds himself only as a temporal lord...it is said that the Church is in the Pope when he holds Charleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15728259859819037533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-75727532574030738722018-02-21T16:33:10.882+00:002018-02-21T16:33:10.882+00:00Perhaps this is an idiotic question, or perhaps I ...Perhaps this is an idiotic question, or perhaps I should already know this, having returned to the Church a little over 10 years ago, but I would like some help with it: what exactly does it mean to be "in communion" with the Pope?Marco da Vinhahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06092410765851812842noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-22864638373631473472018-02-21T16:29:54.656+00:002018-02-21T16:29:54.656+00:00I think we have to consider the possibility that t...I think we have to consider the possibility that the Church's response to the modernist challenge has been confused and littered with mistakes from the get-go -- including Vatican I as well as Vatican II and the Bergoglio papacy.<br /><br />I don't share your optimism that the PF will not directly challenge Christ, and demand allegiance in the name of the Church to an anti-Christian pjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13122944779283399374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-80991064870073455172018-02-21T16:26:55.485+00:002018-02-21T16:26:55.485+00:00If a pope refuses to comment on doctrinal matters,...If a pope refuses to comment on doctrinal matters, the Church is not any worse off than if that pope were, say, unconscious and unable to speak up.<br /><br />Now, obviously the pope in question would have some problems with Da Boss, if he were wilfully being obstructive.<br /><br />As for the original question, it would seem to be prudent to simply avoid giving assent. This would obviously be Bansheehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12594214770417497135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-34161317316691596472018-02-21T16:11:18.575+00:002018-02-21T16:11:18.575+00:00I agree with the comments of Chris Jones above. I...I agree with the comments of Chris Jones above. I believe the Holy Spirit would intervene in the event a pope set out to do what you propose. He could certainly prevent the crisis from happening in the first place, but He need not. He has not always stepped in to prevent crises of the papacy, like the Great Schism or the apostasy of England; but He will always prevent the destruction of the Anita Moorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11305092097247290243noreply@blogger.com