tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post7358689160856350062..comments2024-03-29T09:39:50.604+00:00Comments on Fr Hunwicke's Mutual Enrichment: Mass of the Five Wounds: UPDATEDFr John Hunwickehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17766211573399409633noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-21146610885269973402014-04-17T14:37:58.018+01:002014-04-17T14:37:58.018+01:00It seems timely to be thinking again about the fiv...It seems timely to be thinking again about the five wounds of our Lord, so here is the verse as it occurs in the "Arbuthnott Missal" (Scottish Sarum MS. of 1491, but the Mass of the Five Wounds is tipped in at the front and may be a later addition).<br /><br />"Ave rex, tu solus nostros miseratus errores: Patri obediens, ductus es ad crucem ut agnus mansuetus ad occisionem: tibi Ben Whitworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00499311491843942923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-15870332476809695222014-03-21T13:05:01.389+00:002014-03-21T13:05:01.389+00:00That I cannot say. I just checked Bonniwell but co...That I cannot say. I just checked Bonniwell but couldn't find any reference.Joshuahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17387698013828199070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-72443745656740806252014-03-21T11:29:40.812+00:002014-03-21T11:29:40.812+00:00Joshua,
What I find curious is that the more rece...Joshua,<br /><br />What I find curious is that the more recent Dominican books do not agree with the early printed missals. Is the practice of commemorating the Resurrection/Ascension in the second Alleluia a relatively recent feature of the rite?Christopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14327873527376582757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-88587125567911801902014-03-21T00:27:07.121+00:002014-03-21T00:27:07.121+00:00Nothing curious about the second Alleluia in Domin...Nothing curious about the second Alleluia in Dominican Missals being seasonal - throughout the first forty days of Eastertide, the second Alleluia commemorates the Resurrection; and during Ascensiontide, the Ascension.Joshuahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17387698013828199070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-89896064942552897602014-03-20T17:55:34.073+00:002014-03-20T17:55:34.073+00:00Here is the postscript that I promised.
As Jesse ...Here is the postscript that I promised.<br /><br />As Jesse notes, it’s not easy to find a Sarum source for the chants, and that makes it hard to bring the music to bear on the question at hand. Of course the absence of chants from the printed editions of the Sarum gradual is not evidence that they were never composed; a situation in which the text of the gradual has failed to keep up with the Christopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14327873527376582757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-63158024577909481042014-03-20T11:24:27.529+00:002014-03-20T11:24:27.529+00:00I'm not a Englang phoneticist (though I have t...I'm not a Englang phoneticist (though I have toyed a bit with what happened in Cornish). But the appearances in this piece are, it seems to me, so compelling that I wonder if the isti/iste rhyme does indeed date the Sarum version as English and post-GVS. But aren't we stymied here by the gradualness of linguistic change and the lack of consistency in different parts of the Country? Fr John Hunwickehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17766211573399409633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-20643952172201259702014-03-20T00:21:37.006+00:002014-03-20T00:21:37.006+00:00Like Sir Watkin, I would expect a rhyme of -e with...Like Sir Watkin, I would expect a rhyme of -e with -i to be a post-GVS phenomenon. Unless, that is, there were a tendency to rhyme close front vowels, irrespective of their specific quality; in which case, analogously, one would expect to see rhymes of -o with -u. (All the more so, in fact, as the back axis of the vowel space is more crowded and the distinctions correspondingly slighter.)<br /><Willhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13781776242168427866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-87423720694800182372014-03-19T17:48:19.336+00:002014-03-19T17:48:19.336+00:00Nothing to forgive. The subjects can overlap ... f...Nothing to forgive. The subjects can overlap ... for example, the text crit evidence is one big arguments against the Two-Document (Q!) hypothesis. The big reason I dislike source crit is that it doesn't treat the texts as canonical and deserving respect, but as some old ancient documents to be pulled around for 'scholars' to make their reputations with. But over three decades of Fr John Hunwickehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17766211573399409633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-75640236088227454742014-03-19T17:25:24.797+00:002014-03-19T17:25:24.797+00:00Please forgive me my off-topic question about Sour...Please forgive me my off-topic question about Source Criticism. Would you mind directing me or pointing to the reasons why we should ignore Source Criticism entirely? Is it the specific findings at which they arrive, or the method they try to apply?wywialmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10839436531140017459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-20351196008215926962014-03-19T15:21:55.277+00:002014-03-19T15:21:55.277+00:00Of course I meant "late fifteenth and early s...Of course I meant "late fifteenth and early sixteenth centuries".Jessehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17809446580681184264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-88630043017288892002014-03-19T15:05:46.833+00:002014-03-19T15:05:46.833+00:00On "the exigencies of melody", do we pos...On "the exigencies of melody", do we possess a source containing the melodies for the Sarum propers of the Five Wounds? I have just spent a diverting couple of hours looking for one via Early English Books Online. <br /><br />So far as I can tell, no printed Gradual contains them (I have looked at editions of 1508, 1527, and 1532) -- at least not where one would expect to find them (Jessehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17809446580681184264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-53590229010295388552014-03-19T13:11:08.519+00:002014-03-19T13:11:08.519+00:00Well, this is getting interesting. I consulted th...Well, this is getting interesting. I consulted the two missals that I mentioned in a previous comment. The Rouen missal (1495) agrees perfectly with the Sarum text you quote, but the Dominican missal (Venice, 1484) gives us a third version of the text to work with.<br /><br />Ave rex noster tu solus nostros miseratus errores patri obediens ductus es ad crucifigendum ut agnus mansuetus ad Christopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14327873527376582757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-67470521884254132962014-03-19T12:42:22.499+00:002014-03-19T12:42:22.499+00:00Am I missing something? I can't see that rhymi...Am I missing something? I can't see that rhyming Christe with Pertulisti would suggest an English provenance unless we were discussing a text that postdated the Great Vowel Shift and the consequent distortion of English Latin pronunciation.Sir Watkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02000106556898498656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-7038901418158363852014-03-19T10:50:35.068+00:002014-03-19T10:50:35.068+00:00Interesting! I notice that the Alleluia verse &quo...Interesting! I notice that the Alleluia verse "Ave rex noster tu solus" in the 1952 Graduale Romanum has the same opening musical phrase as the Palm Sunday antiphon "Ave rex noster fili David" in the Worcester Antiphonal; and the CANTUS Database lists no other MSS. with that antiphon. Of course, that may mean no more than that the Solesmes monks in 1952 were looking at the Ben Whitworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00499311491843942923noreply@blogger.com