tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post7124763911356374430..comments2024-03-29T01:24:45.251+00:00Comments on Fr Hunwicke's Mutual Enrichment: COUNCILS: CIRCULAR ARGUMENTSFr John Hunwickehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17766211573399409633noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-72941310015221414632009-02-06T14:28:00.000+00:002009-02-06T14:28:00.000+00:00Fr. Stephen Freeman had a wonderful post that gets...Fr. Stephen Freeman had a wonderful post that gets at an Orthodox understanding of ecclesiology, which I think acknowledges the circularity and 'un-sureness' inherent in any of the supposed external 'guarantees' of unity, fidelity, orthodoxy, etc.<BR/><BR/>The most widely and often quoted piece is:<BR/><BR/>"The Orthodox Church has perhaps the weakest ecclesiology of all, because it depends, 123https://www.blogger.com/profile/14514075641944568806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-64006972231798877612009-02-06T14:11:00.000+00:002009-02-06T14:11:00.000+00:00In the end, ALL arguments about authority in ANY r...In the end, ALL arguments about authority in ANY <I>revealed</I> religion are circular. It's the nature of the beast--get over it. The same logic used to accuse "conciliarists" of circularity can be employed against proponents of the papacy--dragging in the papacy doesn't straighten out the circle.<BR/><BR/>In the end, such arguments can only be resolved as has been attempted here, by referenceProf. Timothy Teeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00561005206721350412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-62046411358251703202009-02-05T16:27:00.000+00:002009-02-05T16:27:00.000+00:00I'm not sure that all the bits and pieces re Ortho...I'm not sure that all the bits and pieces re Orthodoxy's thoughts on all this are accurately represented, but I can see how it might be viewed in these ways.<BR/><BR/>I would note just a few things:<BR/><BR/>1) The explanation of a lot of jockeying for support, desires for unity with Rome, etc. are explained by conciliarity of the major Apostolic sees. Alexandria was 'wrong' and let go because 123https://www.blogger.com/profile/14514075641944568806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-1174161558677859182009-02-05T16:13:00.000+00:002009-02-05T16:13:00.000+00:00Bill,Well, but are the cases of St. Isaac the Syri...Bill,<BR/><BR/><I>Well, but are the cases of St. Isaac the Syrian and Dioscoros all that similar, really?</I><BR/><BR/>Perhaps not. I don't claim to be an expert. The only reason I brought it up was to make the point that being outside the canonical boundaries of (that body which one regards as) the Church is no barrier to being publicly and officially venerated as a saint by that Church.<BR/><Chris Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03220498656377282715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-8251528937449693712009-02-05T15:47:00.000+00:002009-02-05T15:47:00.000+00:00Well, but are the cases of St. Isaac the Syrian an...Well, but are the cases of St. Isaac the Syrian and Dioscoros all that similar, really? The latter was a "Nestorian" monk and bishop, but nothing that I've read about or by him gives any indication that he was "polemically" so, or that those Orthodox who first began to venerate him -- when? -- were aware of this.<BR/><BR/>Dioscoros, Severus and other OO saints like Jacob of Serugh and PhiloxenusWilliam Tighehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16634494183165592707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-7806565757486518732009-02-05T14:26:00.000+00:002009-02-05T14:26:00.000+00:00Well yes, the argument is circular. But whether o...Well yes, the argument is circular. But whether or not that is a problem depends on what it is that one is trying to prove.<BR/><BR/>The whole argument is framed in Papalist terms, because the unspoken premise of the argument is that there must be an element of the Church's polity that serves as the ultimate criterion of orthodoxy and catholicity -- and those who deny that this element of polityChris Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03220498656377282715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-32631787035891311312009-02-05T13:47:00.000+00:002009-02-05T13:47:00.000+00:00Of course, we all know Orthodox and Oriental Ortho...Of course, we all know Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox who get around this by claiming that the dispute between the Os and the OOs was more "philosophical" than "theological," or that it was all a big "misunderstanding," or (as the late W. H. C. Frend argued) was driven by political and cultural conflicts -- and (this has been the refrain since the 1960s) that we will soon see a "reunion" or "William Tighehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16634494183165592707noreply@blogger.com