tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post6871343359305055221..comments2024-03-27T17:29:51.954+00:00Comments on Fr Hunwicke's Mutual Enrichment: Facing FactsFr John Hunwickehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17766211573399409633noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-42574711177114439242009-11-15T11:39:26.257+00:002009-11-15T11:39:26.257+00:00Sounds like that's a good place to end this di...Sounds like that's a good place to end this discussion (for me, at least): let's see what happens....Joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10561278212383348268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-11057144261484208582009-11-15T04:38:00.636+00:002009-11-15T04:38:00.636+00:00With the greatest respect, I don't think Apost...With the greatest respect, I don't think <i>Apostolicae Curae</i> should be interpreted politically.<br /><br />It is, however, quite right to recognize that it is cited neither in <i>Anglicanorum Coetibus</i> nor the Complementary Norms. The opinions of the learned Rector of the Gregorian University are not canon law; but it is to be expected that the principles of <i>Apostolicae Curae</i> CPKShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14450108415656796528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-45156057222241906132009-11-13T01:12:13.355+00:002009-11-13T01:12:13.355+00:00It bears mentioning that "Anglicans" hel...It bears mentioning that "Anglicans" held Anglican Orders to be invalid just as early as "Romans" did. I mean "Anglicans" like bishops Bonner, Gardiner, Tunstall and the like, who have as much claim to be "Anglicans" as those like Cranmer, Hooper, Ridley and the lot, who wished to turn England into a theological suburb of Zurich.<br /><br />These bishops William Tighehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16634494183165592707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-12609260852213989492009-11-12T20:04:23.665+00:002009-11-12T20:04:23.665+00:00I presume that it would be because, with valid ord...I presume that it would be because, with valid orders, the various Anglican churches would have to be recognised as true churches by Rome, with valid sacrmanents, etc. (and not just ecclesial communities), even if schismatic churches. As you say, I think that this is how many have viewed part of the rationale behind apostolicae curae....Joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10561278212383348268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-70724475873090529652009-11-12T19:24:05.024+00:002009-11-12T19:24:05.024+00:00Fr. Joe, how would Rome's recognizing Anglican...Fr. Joe, how would Rome's recognizing Anglican Orders make re-union less likely. It is said that similar reasoning played a part in Apostolicae Curae itself but the hypothesis was not borne out in fact.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07352598115559204014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-21936464464876524082009-11-12T18:17:11.578+00:002009-11-12T18:17:11.578+00:00I think that's a pretty sound reading of the s...I think that's a pretty sound reading of the situation. A number of historians make quite a bit out of Rome's desire to have Anglicaism back, as it were. And recognising Anglican orders would arguably make that less likely. Perhaps things haven't changed all that much over the last century.Joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10561278212383348268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-28821570990227314232009-11-12T14:36:26.620+00:002009-11-12T14:36:26.620+00:00Fr. Joe; in response I begin with one of your poin...Fr. Joe; in response I begin with one of your points:<br /><br />"No attempt was made to determine whether there was doubt."<br /><br />I believe this 'Roman mannerism' of making "no attempt" is essential to the understanding of our present situation. Now, I speculate (though I think not without reason) that Rome (videlicet the Pope) intends to quickly transition Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-33678802793479940622009-11-12T05:37:33.598+00:002009-11-12T05:37:33.598+00:00Here is the commentary released by the Vatican , a...Here is the commentary released by the Vatican , and authored by the Rector of the Gregorian:<br /><br />4. the ordination of ministers coming from Anglicanism will be absolute, on the basis of the Bull Apostolicae curae of Leo XIII of September 13, 1896. Given the entire Catholic Latin tradition and the tradition of the Oriental Catholic Churches, including the Orthodox tradition, the admission Joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10561278212383348268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-1696501736272583952009-11-12T00:13:42.974+00:002009-11-12T00:13:42.974+00:00Regarding the recent remarks that absolute, rather...Regarding the recent remarks that absolute, rather than conditional, reordination may be required under <i>Anglicanorum Coetibus</i>: I see nothing in this legislation to support this surmise. <br /><br />Indeed, there has been no derogation from <i>Apostolicae Curae</i>. But <i>Apostolicae Curae</i> was a judgment about Anglican Orders <i>per se</i> as conducted in normal circumstances using theCPKShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14450108415656796528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-36766642049597841222009-11-10T10:53:55.766+00:002009-11-10T10:53:55.766+00:00Thanks for helping to clarify Fr. Joe, but the com...Thanks for helping to clarify Fr. Joe, but the complete statement is still equivocal, especially, as pointed out by others, vis-a-vis the *practice* of Roma. Cardinal Ratzinger and Pope Benedict XVI do not necessarily say the same thing; the former lacked the gravitas of office. Anyway, my ignorance may possess an invincible character in these matters, under which case; we'll have to let itAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-77212529924121454822009-11-10T08:33:48.680+00:002009-11-10T08:33:48.680+00:00Father thank you - again you have shown yourself
t...Father thank you - again you have shown yourself<br />to be John Chrysostom HunwickeNebulyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11251303196283705580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-21404511098009764622009-11-10T07:34:14.688+00:002009-11-10T07:34:14.688+00:00oops: better put my glasses on before I press the ...oops: better put my glasses on before I press the publish button: sorry for all the spelling mistakes!Joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10561278212383348268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-47725585976350328862009-11-10T07:32:50.005+00:002009-11-10T07:32:50.005+00:00I know there have been some conditional ordination...I know there have been some conditional ordinations (some were rather famous, as in the Boshop of London), but there have been many more absolute orindations, and the proposal for the ordinariates is for future ordinations to be absolute, prcisely because of apostoloica curae. Even one would be too many....Joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10561278212383348268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-37508172929863620782009-11-10T04:39:54.257+00:002009-11-10T04:39:54.257+00:00There have been conditional re-ordinations of form...There <i>have</i> been conditional re-ordinations of former CofE clergy.CPKShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14450108415656796528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-25806422519583102702009-11-09T23:53:43.330+00:002009-11-09T23:53:43.330+00:00You need to read the whole thing:
'with regar...You need to read the whole thing:<br /><br />'with regard to the nature of the assent owed to the truths set forth by the Church as divinely revealed (those of the first paragraph) or to be held definitively (those of the second paragraph), it is important to emphasize that there is no difference with respect to the full and irrevocable character of the assent which is owed to these teachingsJoehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10561278212383348268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-39463148280504462692009-11-09T23:42:50.384+00:002009-11-09T23:42:50.384+00:00"Benedict believes that apostolicae curae is ..."Benedict believes that apostolicae curae is infallibly taught by the ordinary magisterium"<br /><br />Not so quick yerself! <br /><br />Pope Benedict XVI said June 29, 1998:<br /><br />"With regard to those truths connected to revelation by historical necessity and which are to be held definitively, but are not able to be declared as divinely revealed, the following examples can Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-74827259172887083672009-11-09T23:21:08.448+00:002009-11-09T23:21:08.448+00:00Anglicans who believe themselves to be validly ord...Anglicans who believe themselves to be validly ordained ... can easily submit to absolute ordination & confirmation because it is only *implied* that these Sacraments were invalidly received. <br /><br />Not so quickly. Benedict believes that apostolicae curae is infallibly taught by the ordinary magisterium (possibly-infallible makes infallibility absurd), so if you believe you were validlyJoehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10561278212383348268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-44783372619291018222009-11-09T21:26:50.889+00:002009-11-09T21:26:50.889+00:00I wonder what Vicar Hunwicke will have to say abou...I wonder what Vicar Hunwicke will have to say about Article 6 clause 2.Aduliohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00534730218402742905noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-24792212131658850592009-11-09T21:19:47.274+00:002009-11-09T21:19:47.274+00:00This comment has been removed by the author.Aduliohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00534730218402742905noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-10206585581219852382009-11-09T16:31:53.869+00:002009-11-09T16:31:53.869+00:00"4. the ordination of ministers coming from A..."4. the ordination of ministers coming from Anglicanism will be absolute, on the basis of the Bull Apostolicae curae of Leo XIII of September 13, 1896."<br /><br />This statement is not explicit in the actual Constitution (it is from the accompanying explanation by Fr. Ghirlanda), leaving lots of room for mental reservation. That is to say, Anglicans who believe themselves to be Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-11942375202748871442009-11-09T15:34:54.782+00:002009-11-09T15:34:54.782+00:00"4. the ordination of ministers coming from A..."4. the ordination of ministers coming from Anglicanism will be absolute, on the basis of the Bull Apostolicae curae of Leo XIII of September 13, 1896."Jacob Hickshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02435082163759225318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-30099703569893298322009-11-09T14:59:34.878+00:002009-11-09T14:59:34.878+00:00"Without excluding liturgical celebrations ac..."Without excluding liturgical celebrations according to the Roman Rite..."<br /><br />That answers one of your earlier inquiries, Fr. H.Michael McDonoughhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17384055883425252489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-79111468713626290742009-11-09T14:52:16.914+00:002009-11-09T14:52:16.914+00:00And finally (yes, I mean it this time!) two more p...And finally (yes, I mean it this time!) two more points:<br /><br />(1) Cardinal Kaspar asked us to abandon admitting women to the episcopate. He offered us, and could offer us (Ratzinger had seen to that), nothing in exchange. It was no wonder (and I'm quite sure it was no wonder to him either) if he went away with nothing.<br /><br />(2) I do not believe for a moment that +Rowan became ABC Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09367545445575135099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-61474349006709368182009-11-09T14:35:24.905+00:002009-11-09T14:35:24.905+00:00And I also repeat a point that I have made elsewhe...And I also repeat a point that I have made elsewhere on this blog: if the then Cardinal Ratzinger had responded positively to ARCIC I instead of squelching it, the 1992 vote in the C of E General Synod would have gone the other way.Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09367545445575135099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-9693307772937580952009-11-09T14:07:13.947+00:002009-11-09T14:07:13.947+00:00The Constitution made most interesting reading!
J...The Constitution made most interesting reading!<br /><br />Just three things that struck me:<br /><br />(1) Subject to the CDF (Article 1) - What price Humanae Vitae?<br /><br />(2) Every individual will have to be come a Roman Catholic (Article 5 ยง1) - no simple transferring of congregations en masse.<br /><br />(3) Those originally ordained as RC's can't minister in the Ordinariate (Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09367545445575135099noreply@blogger.com