tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post6490536016920006978..comments2024-03-28T20:30:48.788+00:00Comments on Fr Hunwicke's Mutual Enrichment: Why was she assumed? A Patrimonial answerFr John Hunwickehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17766211573399409633noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-66132597535312995542016-08-19T18:48:50.613+01:002016-08-19T18:48:50.613+01:00What I take from Newman's phrase that Mary is ...What I take from Newman's phrase that Mary is the "first fruits of the glorified Church" is not that she was the first to rise from the dead. Clearly that is Jesus, as St. Paul affirms. He is our Lord and God who took human nature to himself and redeemed it. But the Church is also the Body not just the Head, and the final reality of the Church will be a physical as well as a Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-51284810865292523832016-08-18T13:51:43.284+01:002016-08-18T13:51:43.284+01:00Sorry for posting so much in your comment box, Fat...Sorry for posting so much in your comment box, Father, but it's an important topic and I'm home today....<br /><br />(Oh, and the Nisibene Hymn translation is Livius, p. 233. Sorry to lean so hard on one old anthology book, but it's awfully handy.)Bansheehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12594214770417497135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-73886466306062510812016-08-18T13:47:51.135+01:002016-08-18T13:47:51.135+01:00Re: first-fruits as a title for other people besid...Re: first-fruits as a title for other people besides Christ or Mary, St. Ephrem of Syria was very big on praising infant baptism, and the great holiness of kids who ended up dying young but after Baptism, as even more holy than the martyrs and other saints. In his Nisibis Hymns, 62, 23: <br /><br />"For your infants and children will come forth first in the resurrection, as the first-fruits;Bansheehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12594214770417497135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-30028268040412056332016-08-18T13:44:12.452+01:002016-08-18T13:44:12.452+01:00@ Banshee, I was aware of the possibility of such ...@ Banshee, I was aware of the possibility of such explanations re "first fruits," with its OT resonances. However ...<br /><br />Lossky specifies first-fruits of the GLORIFIED church, not simply of the Church. Just as Paul specifies first fruits of the Resurrection. The connection between the "glorified" Church and Jesus as resurrected seems worth exploring.<br /><br />Re mark wauckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12847411975641738898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-58074477417998822312016-08-18T13:38:59.371+01:002016-08-18T13:38:59.371+01:00St. Athanasius, the defender of Christ's divin...St. Athanasius, the defender of Christ's divinity and humanity, did not scorn to associate Mary with the "first-fruits" of immortal life:<br /><br />As translated by Livius (The Blessed Virgin Mary in the Fathers of the First Six Centuries, p. 79-80): <br /><br />"[He] Who was born of the Virgin is, in truth, King, and the Lord God. And on His account, she who gave Him birth isBansheehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12594214770417497135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-22270808409664014742016-08-18T12:55:23.050+01:002016-08-18T12:55:23.050+01:00Re: Mary as first-fruits of the Church - There was...Re: Mary as first-fruits of the Church - There was not just one first-fruits crop under the Law, but seven. There was also frequent comparison between the first-born son (the womb opener) and the first fruits, but all children were "the fruit of the womb." The Church is often compared in the Fathers to a pregnant woman, bearing Jesus in her womb to the world, and birthing many little Bansheehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12594214770417497135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-2929138264628793232016-08-18T00:31:20.958+01:002016-08-18T00:31:20.958+01:00"No gift is received in the Church without th..."No gift is received in the Church without the assistance of the Mother of God, who is herself the first-fruits of the glorified Church."<br /><br />I'll freely admit that I'm not at all sure what "first-fruits of the glorified Church" actually means. I'll also freely admit that it makes me a bit uneasy to apply the title "first-fruits" to Mary when Paulmark wauckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12847411975641738898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-9198759526670546642016-08-17T22:56:23.715+01:002016-08-17T22:56:23.715+01:00Are you saying Father, that anyone that trifles wi...Are you saying Father, that anyone that trifles with this essential truth of our Catholic patrimony and Faith is doing us all a grave injustice?Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14340614417089902607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-66809744952408972442016-08-17T22:41:42.313+01:002016-08-17T22:41:42.313+01:00The question "Why was Mary assumed?" tra...The question "Why was Mary assumed?" translates as two questions. One is "As a result of what was Mary assumed?" The other is "For what purpose was Mary assumed". If we put these together as two facets of the same mystery, then all the ground is covered.dunmowflitchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06078414155588506510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-4130438175994564452016-08-17T22:41:29.975+01:002016-08-17T22:41:29.975+01:00GOR - to push any differentiation between Our Lady...GOR - to push any differentiation between Our Lady and the rest of humanity such that it serves as a wall separating our humanity from hers is the risk I see by positing a uniqueness about Mary that we can never share or participate in. In eastern iconography, you rarely - if ever - see an icon of Mary without Her Son, to underscore that She is the bridge to Her Son and we have that same promiseStephenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12833345391579579562noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-22236590796916938272016-08-17T22:05:17.893+01:002016-08-17T22:05:17.893+01:00I think all of the reasons you list to begin, Fath...I think all of the reasons you list to begin, Father, which are those explicitly shared by Pius XII all point to Mary as Mediatrix of All Graces. Matthew Rothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00958673318312786618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-81903037380023927432016-08-17T22:04:44.706+01:002016-08-17T22:04:44.706+01:00I have mused on this elsewhere…but it is clear the...I have mused on this elsewhere…but it is clear the Virgin died, so it leads to questions about death, the original way we would have left this life, and the exact consequences of original sin. <br /><br />The liturgy supplies the law of faith, which is that Mary’s Assumption led to her being Mediatrix of All Graces in an eternal way; her mediation on earth is clear at Cana. Matthew Rothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00958673318312786618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-60318648232104205692016-08-17T22:00:59.689+01:002016-08-17T22:00:59.689+01:00Indeed. The Virgin is the exemplary cause of the C...Indeed. The Virgin is the exemplary cause of the Christian life. Matthew Rothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00958673318312786618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-74197420253302902512016-08-17T21:38:43.943+01:002016-08-17T21:38:43.943+01:00I suppose one could adduce many reasons for the As...I suppose one could adduce many reasons for the Assumption of Our Lady. For me, however, it is simple. Our Lady is the new Eve – the ‘real Eve’ as God meant Eve (and Adam) to be. Adam and Eve disobeyed and as a result “death came into the world”. They died because of their sin.<br /><br />Our Lady was preserved from sin – even Original Sin – and thus was not ‘subject’ to natural death. GORhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14313101159848740722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-19762707667032587222016-08-17T18:35:53.576+01:002016-08-17T18:35:53.576+01:00Dear Sir,
A thought provoking reflection. It migh...Dear Sir,<br /><br />A thought provoking reflection. It might be interesting to read through the Catholic catechetical tradition and see whether reverence for the Name of Mary (and those of the Saints) was ever based on that Commandment.<br /><br />Speaking of "that" Commandment, please do not consider me too pedantic if I point out that Catholics count it as the fourth, not fifth, Ben of the Bayouhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07300583569226801488noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-71346519935002102422016-08-17T18:02:38.473+01:002016-08-17T18:02:38.473+01:00Thank you for the Newman quote. It seems to me tha...Thank you for the Newman quote. It seems to me that "first fruits of the glorified Church" sums up and clarifies all the thoughts you mention about the reasons given for Our Lady's bodily Assumption.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-63621387764509388962016-08-17T17:08:38.201+01:002016-08-17T17:08:38.201+01:00It was a pleasure to assist at your Mass on Monday...It was a pleasure to assist at your Mass on Monday, Father. Might I cite the Byzantine Troparion and Kontakion of the feast as evidence from the East for the point you make?<br /><br />Troparion: In giving birth you preserved your virginity, in falling asleep you did not forsake the world, O Mother of God. You were translated to life, O Mother of Life, and by your prayers, you deliver our souls Gregory Pearson OPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05533454640868023628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-37032278182192174732016-08-17T16:44:03.004+01:002016-08-17T16:44:03.004+01:00Legions of priests are orphan boys, bereft of fili...Legions of priests are orphan boys, bereft of filial love and devotion our Lady. Starved of any proper instruction regarding Mary’s role in our salvation during their seminary years. Discouraged from praying the rosary. Encouraged to always speak ‘ecumenically’ when and if ever they mention our Lady in homilies. Fixated on describing our Lady as ‘Role Model’. Unable to cry from the depths of Simple Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09278399797941120022noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-46209869017807829612016-08-17T16:43:30.598+01:002016-08-17T16:43:30.598+01:00It seems to me that all mothers are mediatrixes of...It seems to me that all mothers are mediatrixes of goods to their children. My mother prepared and served our meals and made us eat our vegetables, gave us our medicine when we were sick, taught us our prayers, put us to bed, explained how the world worked, how we were to conduct ourselves in it and the consequences if we didn't. Should we wonder, then, that Mary, by God's gracious Tamquamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17362772766116096557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-33295328864148602742016-08-17T16:15:15.533+01:002016-08-17T16:15:15.533+01:00Someone (I wish I could remember who) responding t...Someone (I wish I could remember who) responding to accusations that Catholics worship the Blessed Virgin Mary, wrote to the effect that, were men able to see Our Lady as she truly is, it is only the Catholic Faith that would prevent them from worshiping her as a god.<br /><br />The mention of DNA brings to mind an instance of how modern science can serve as an aid to piety. About a decade ago, Cordeliohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05525559170043594697noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-19256417198035678722016-08-17T15:34:23.291+01:002016-08-17T15:34:23.291+01:00Perhaps. Certainly in the East we pray often "...Perhaps. Certainly in the East we pray often "Through the prayers of the Theotokos, Save us O Lord." <br /><br />But.....there is a reason not to go too overboard with the intercessory munificence of Our Lady, and that is because it can, and has, overshadowed another key role which the Theotokos plays in the economy of our salvation. Namely, that as the first fruit, She is the model Stephenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12833345391579579562noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-3260424402873765652016-08-17T14:55:02.021+01:002016-08-17T14:55:02.021+01:00@John F H H: I love it! What an inspired thought!@John F H H: I love it! What an inspired thought!gskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17498244324906079070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-58337835458013428042016-08-17T13:45:43.436+01:002016-08-17T13:45:43.436+01:00"For what did Jesus love on Earth one half so..."For what did Jesus love on Earth one half so tenderly as thee?" Fr Faber is - I think - following St Alphonsus here when he argues that the Son of God must have obeyed the commandments perfectly and so honoured his father and his mother REAFFIRMATION & RENEWALhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00831359710188411747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-5855542080270961332016-08-17T11:00:33.267+01:002016-08-17T11:00:33.267+01:00Last week I fell to reflecting on the approaching ...Last week I fell to reflecting on the approaching feast. <br />I recalled how, as a child, I was puzzled how, in the decalogue, duty to God 'got' but four commandments and to neighbour six.<br /><br />The fifth commandment (Honour thy father and thy mother, that thy days may be long in the land the Lord thy God giveth thee) stands out amongst the rest referring to specific neighbours and John F H Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01032884551581324489noreply@blogger.com