tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post5689156977163747427..comments2024-03-27T17:29:51.954+00:00Comments on Fr Hunwicke's Mutual Enrichment: More on Tutti FruttiFr John Hunwickehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17766211573399409633noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-31775838972813908152020-10-13T04:28:51.159+01:002020-10-13T04:28:51.159+01:00I’ve heard of the Johannine comma and the Oxford c...I’ve heard of the Johannine comma and the Oxford comma. Egads, now we have to struggle with the Tutti Frutti comma. Andrew M. Greenwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17242573723573203387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-61714732733293572412020-10-12T04:47:19.895+01:002020-10-12T04:47:19.895+01:00In the seventh chapter of "Teach Yourself Bib...In the seventh chapter of "Teach Yourself Biblical Hebrew", there is a very relevant paragraph (albeit one which, in quoting, I am comparing greater things to lesser - something I do not like to do, but it is what it is) ....<br /><br />I quote the paragraph in full: it can be found in original form on pages 47 and 48 of "Teach Yourself Biblical Hebrew," by R.K. Harrison, Ph.Dstephen cooperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17277962223155674985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-43584764200527486822020-10-11T17:02:28.020+01:002020-10-11T17:02:28.020+01:00Interesting. When I read Tooty-Frooty first I spo...Interesting. When I read Tooty-Frooty first I spotted this howler. Then yesterday I read your post with consequent affirmative joy.<br /><br />Today I am not so sure. After all, we say "Joseph, the carpenter" - and there are many. Depends what mood you're in when you read it.<br /><br />The point is that we are having this discussion, so even if this point is not valid, the fact Josephus Muris Saliensishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10888638147153175697noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-38314998047027474652020-10-11T13:32:00.254+01:002020-10-11T13:32:00.254+01:00Having checked all the available language versions...Having checked all the available language versions, it's evident that someone has quite simply botched the English translation, only this one - by introducing a comma where it shouldn't have been. In all the remaining languages, the text reads (or can perfectly be understood as): 'Bartholomew, that particular Orthodox Patriarch who...' (As for Polish, its grammar has no articles,Jaroslav Bublinechttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08353568596811298038noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-78922950584293093472020-10-11T13:30:44.299+01:002020-10-11T13:30:44.299+01:00Having checked all the available language versions...Having checked all the available language versions, it's evident that someone has quite simply botched the English translation, only this one - by introducing a comma where it shouldn't have been. In all the remaining languages, the text reads (or can perfectly be understood as): 'Bartholomew, that particular Orthodox Patriarch who...' (As for Polish, its grammar has no articles,Jaroslav Bublinechttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08353568596811298038noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-38374264325839232692020-10-11T02:22:23.831+01:002020-10-11T02:22:23.831+01:00And from the Basis of the Social Concept, this gen...And from the Basis of the Social Concept, this general statement: <br />“Fulfilling the mission of the salvation of the human race, the Church performs it not only through direct preaching, but also through good works aimed to improve the spiritual-moral and material condition of the world around her. To this end, she enters into co-operation with the state, even if it is not Christian, as well Woodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08910654300435533408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-67134108683646057542020-10-11T02:16:32.564+01:002020-10-11T02:16:32.564+01:00Both Russian and Latin lack articles so the point ...Both Russian and Latin lack articles so the point would likely be lost on Vladyka Kirill.Mishahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01730761464380125811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-22832090091028108402020-10-11T02:15:38.212+01:002020-10-11T02:15:38.212+01:00Both Latin and Russian lack articles, definite or ...Both Latin and Russian lack articles, definite or indefinite, though Greek has definite articles. Not sure what the original of the text was, or if there was more than one, but the point would likely be lost on Vladyka Kirill.Mishahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01730761464380125811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-47489564074806893982020-10-11T02:08:35.574+01:002020-10-11T02:08:35.574+01:00I think that I shall return to reading The Bases o...I think that I shall return to reading The Bases of the Social Concept of The Russian Orthodox Church. From what one hears of TF, the former would be more edifying.Woodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08910654300435533408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-91643756079931376242020-10-10T22:39:23.946+01:002020-10-10T22:39:23.946+01:00There is no article, definite or indefinite, in Po...There is no article, definite or indefinite, in Polish either. The comma after “Patriarcha Prawosławny“ is required by the following relative clause; writing with Capitals <i>might</i> be interpreted as denoting “<b>the</b> Orthodox patriarch”, but my knowledge of Polish is too limited to be certain about this level of subtlety.<br /><br />The German version on the other hand is even more likely Protasiushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13513744611326784368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-71334265824487015762020-10-10T22:21:52.364+01:002020-10-10T22:21:52.364+01:00Last time I heard we Antiocheans had a Patriarchat...Last time I heard we Antiocheans had a Patriarchate.Dale Crakeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12596274028119702873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-30746101630785903712020-10-10T21:48:33.526+01:002020-10-10T21:48:33.526+01:00William - in Greek be cautious :
RSV Mark 1:1 ¶ Th...William - in Greek be cautious :<br />RSV Mark 1:1 ¶ The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, <b>the Son</b> of God.<br />BYZ Mark 1:1 Ἀρχὴ τοῦ εὐαγγελίου Ἰησοῦ χριστοῦ, υἱοῦ <b>τοῦ θεοῦ</b>.E sapelionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09886268559214926797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-59640350460040651512020-10-10T20:10:56.114+01:002020-10-10T20:10:56.114+01:00Given that Bartholomew has fallen out of communion...Given that Bartholomew has fallen out of communion with Moscow, could it not be that he has secretly joined the Uniates amongst whom he might well be for all I know the Patriarch. In any case, whether or not this is true, Bartholomew a crypto-protestant and alleged freemason has found his home in mother Rome like so many. One hopes that they do not end up like the ill-fated Panchamama idols. But Paul-A. Hardyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11625698481730141561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-91157219408367902322020-10-10T18:01:40.098+01:002020-10-10T18:01:40.098+01:00And one more thing. In Polish translation there is...And one more thing. In Polish translation there is a comma between "Patriarch" and "who". But it is due to our language rules: we always put commas before "which" and "who" (in Polish it's only one word: "który") and doesn't strengthens possible understanding "Patriarcha Prawosławny" as "the Orthodox Patriarch". Tomasz D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/01120652467432579597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-58936216701273082122020-10-10T16:33:29.405+01:002020-10-10T16:33:29.405+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.Tomasz D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/01120652467432579597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-20765973822783613152020-10-10T16:32:54.877+01:002020-10-10T16:32:54.877+01:00Dear Father,
In Polish it sounds: "mój brat ...Dear Father,<br /><br />In Polish it sounds: "mój brat Bartłomiej, Patriarcha Prawosławny, który...", which can be rendered word by word: "my brother Bartholomew, Orthodox Patriarch, who...". In fact we don't have definite articles (sometimes we use demonstrative pronouns as definite articles but only in situations when we are speaking about something mentioned in the Tomasz D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/01120652467432579597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-62789398930468133352020-10-10T16:24:53.359+01:002020-10-10T16:24:53.359+01:00I would understand "..Smith, the American,......I would understand "..Smith, the American,..." not to mean that Smith is the only American in the world but, rather, that of all the Smiths <br />in our common acquaintance, the reference is to that Smith who is American.<br /><br />So, the reference is to that Bartholomew who is an Orthodox Patriarch - however many others there may be. <br />Jhayeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07064136312272621107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-80199810890372226882020-10-10T11:19:33.716+01:002020-10-10T11:19:33.716+01:00Good point. But if the original were in Latin, how...Good point. But if the original were in Latin, how would we know if we should translate with a definite article? Now, in Greek of course, ...Williamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05701679224835329729noreply@blogger.com