tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post4943856416799074636..comments2024-03-29T01:24:45.251+00:00Comments on Fr Hunwicke's Mutual Enrichment: More on DeathgateFr John Hunwickehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17766211573399409633noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-49494142131069031072018-08-13T06:12:38.217+01:002018-08-13T06:12:38.217+01:00As the days have passed, this change bothers me mo...As the days have passed, this change bothers me more and more. I initially blew it off as I do with everything else pope Francis does these days. But it does seem to falsify Catholic belief about magisterial teaching. The principle of non-contradiction of eternal truths is a bedrock belief for the catholic intellectual system to hold together. The letter to the bishops arguing this is a Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00681296306358764468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-60201557476689658922018-08-10T12:41:07.731+01:002018-08-10T12:41:07.731+01:00Pope Francis has no business or authority to forbi...Pope Francis has no business or authority to forbid the death penalty. Instead I would be delighted to see it applied to the priests, bishops, and cardinals who have abused children, seminarians, etc.---according to Mt 18:1. I say this out of respect for the real dignity of innocent victims.<br />Martin McDermott, S.J.Martin McDermott, sjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13178374408013979156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-11352765392902376062018-08-07T19:05:19.796+01:002018-08-07T19:05:19.796+01:00As others have pointed out as well, one doesn'...As others have pointed out as well, one doesn't have to use the phrase "intrinsece malum" to express the concept signified by "intrinsece malum". In my opinion, it is clear from the revised text and especially the <a href="http://w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/speeches/2017/october/documents/papa-francesco_20171011_convegno-nuova-evangelizzazione.html" rel="nofollow">Albinushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03569576207090703708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-3019864049171595182018-08-07T15:20:57.824+01:002018-08-07T15:20:57.824+01:00@ Marko and others using the same thought, "t...@ Marko and others using the same thought, "the Church now teaches..."<br /><br />This point should not be conceded. The Church, in fact, does not now teach but rather Pope Francis teaches or attempts to teach depending on how charity demands that we interpret this passage (either that, being the idea that the death penalty is not something that is open to the State is a heretical Lurker #59https://www.blogger.com/profile/00746580328026575323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-28415381810493203692018-08-07T13:09:44.794+01:002018-08-07T13:09:44.794+01:00Clever as always, this Francis: begin the heretica...Clever as always, this Francis: begin the heretical change of the Deposit of Faith with a footnote about divorce and the reception of the Eucharist (meant to go unnoticed except by those firmly establishing the practice world-wide under the guise of pastoral guidance and sensitivity); next tackle the question of the death penalty, which sentimentalized Catholics in many parts of the world don'coradcorloquiturhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07125381369456761748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-69403853612028547172018-08-07T08:49:05.399+01:002018-08-07T08:49:05.399+01:00Surely the point of these recent alterations must ...Surely the point of these recent alterations must be considered from the conclusions to see if they help clarify the situation.<br />No evidence is given to justify ‘in the light of the Gospel’ (yet). But Capital punishment is ruled inadmissible. In any Court of Law if something is rules ‘inadmissible’ barristers and solicitors seek to find ways to make it admissible. Thus, the alteration to CCC Fr. David Evanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16829634318188896693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-1551052222037558092018-08-06T23:40:50.622+01:002018-08-06T23:40:50.622+01:00"John Vasc said...
Fr Z has an interesting t..."John Vasc said...<br /><br />Fr Z has an interesting take on this: he asks if this new clause, which as he points out will be quite uncontroversial in many western societies, might be the prelude to some much more radical papal alteration in the Catechism."<br /><br />Hardly a prophetic prediction.<br /><br />The dissidents know the deal and they are just about to throw a garden party;Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-82657684321391600842018-08-06T21:27:04.510+01:002018-08-06T21:27:04.510+01:00I don't think this concerns losing or retainin...I don't think this concerns losing or retaining human dignity.<br />Some might argue that a criminal might retain human dignity, but he loses his right to freedom. Some others might argue that precisely because he loses human dignity he loses the right to freedom.<br /><br />So there can be a long argument about:<br />1. Criminals lose or retain human dignity<br />2. Rights are lost in spite Marko Ivančičevićhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04579400863718513875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-67362945951738739072018-08-06T21:19:37.549+01:002018-08-06T21:19:37.549+01:00Dear John Vasc
I certainly agree with "Fr Ze...Dear John Vasc<br /><br />I certainly agree with "Fr Zed's take", which is why I made precisely the same point towards the end of my first post on Deathgate.Fr John Hunwickehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17766211573399409633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-4198943224472499432018-08-06T20:39:38.959+01:002018-08-06T20:39:38.959+01:00@ A.M. - Nobody is 'denying the Pope the power...@ A.M. - Nobody is 'denying the Pope the power to teach'. But teaching entails rather more than a blank sweeping away of existing doctrine without supporting argumentation. (Yet once again we see this papacy mounting a quick salvo of drive-by para-doctrine.) <br /><br />The whole concept of 'inviolability' is empty of significant meaning. For if capital punishment is said to be &#John Vaschttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00335331585265267754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-18510813698131630672018-08-06T18:53:18.138+01:002018-08-06T18:53:18.138+01:00So what the Church taught, is now directly contrad...So what the Church taught, is now directly contradicted.<br /><br />Fr Z has an interesting take on this: he asks if this new clause, which as he points out will be quite uncontroversial in many western societies, might be the prelude to some much more radical papal alteration in the Catechism.John Vaschttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00335331585265267754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-55615277830768857452018-08-06T18:08:49.801+01:002018-08-06T18:08:49.801+01:00Thank you Father Hunwicke for the translation. Th...Thank you Father Hunwicke for the translation. That was very helpful.<br /><br />Of course this most recent attempt to "change Church teaching" will be wildly successful among those who store their scissors and paste close by their Catechisms. <br /><br />And it is of course nonsense.<br /><br />As an aside and distinct from the issue involving "dignity", never before today Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-39707313111457324162018-08-06T18:05:59.744+01:002018-08-06T18:05:59.744+01:00"Don't get too het-up; life's too sho..."Don't get too het-up; life's too short".<br /><br />Ps 69:9; John 2:17<br /><br />Life is forever. Judgement is written in stone. "Zeal for His House consumes me. Insults to Christ fall on me".<br /><br />Zeal for Christ, personal holiness and the holiness of His Bride protected from sacrilege is all that matters to me in life.<br /><br />We live in an age of Aquahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06691722006352014613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-67461221240283885902018-08-06T17:30:09.286+01:002018-08-06T17:30:09.286+01:00I wonder to what extent Article XXXVII of the Chur...I wonder to what extent Article XXXVII of the Church of England is still taken seriously? From a personal point of view, as an Anglican who has for a long time been considering converting to Roman Catholicism, would I be required to change my viewpoint from one consistent with Article XXXVII (i.e. that "the Laws of the Realm may punish Christian men with death, for heinous and grievous Colin Spinkshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06187466247865796371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-23384863974483129752018-08-06T13:16:33.248+01:002018-08-06T13:16:33.248+01:00Dear Father,
Then, what are we to make of Pope St...Dear Father,<br /><br />Then, what are we to make of Pope St. Peter's "trial" of Ananias and Sapphira? While their capital punishment was effected by the agency of God, and not by human hand, it would seem, to my simple mind, to run afoul of Pope Francis's proscription against the violation of "human dignity". So, is God a badguy? Or should HE just go back to schoolArthur H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04059584860129061678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-79603817451786439152018-08-06T13:11:24.385+01:002018-08-06T13:11:24.385+01:00Since when does "societal progress" reve...Since when does "societal progress" reverse the liceity of a deed? <br /><br />So....in Vaticanspeak, what was morally licit yesterday is no longer licit today because 'progress.' Dear Father, your defense of this change remains un-convincing.<br /><br />(As a matter of interest, I am perfectly happy with the teaching of JPII on the topic.)Dad29https://www.blogger.com/profile/08554276286736923821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-47887638920054106842018-08-06T12:22:18.358+01:002018-08-06T12:22:18.358+01:00Lynn Phifer. Bingo (as we say here in the Colonies...Lynn Phifer. Bingo (as we say here in the Colonies). The very recent putting this highly nuanced notion at the center of Catholic morals is like the Progressive Left's putting of tolerance and diversity at the center of secular political morality. They are not unconnected moves and they have the same set of disastrous results.<br /><br />OreamnosAmericanushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15602268350813211243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-2220418681861680482018-08-06T02:31:33.165+01:002018-08-06T02:31:33.165+01:00If the intrinsic dignity of the human person was i...If the intrinsic dignity of the human person was inviolate then God's death sentence of Adam would make him a murderer.lynnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18241812863817316056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-75337145980040255832018-08-06T02:28:49.968+01:002018-08-06T02:28:49.968+01:00It's the inviolable dignity of the human perso...It's the inviolable dignity of the human person wherein lies the overt heresy.lynnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18241812863817316056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-3027123711516142722018-08-06T00:18:04.053+01:002018-08-06T00:18:04.053+01:00I still do not see how this is not a new teaching....I still do not see how this is not a new teaching. Unless some attacks on the inviolability and dignity of the person are not evil/sinful, capital punishment is now taught ("the Church teaches") to be an inadmissible evil. Additionally, the CDF letter states, "The death penalty, regardless of the means of execution, 'entails cruel, inhumane, and degrading treatment'" -Adam Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12212754258648111724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-82548830646617066722018-08-06T00:02:05.928+01:002018-08-06T00:02:05.928+01:00We need to simplify considerably. Time to stop sc...We need to simplify considerably. Time to stop scratching our chins and see what is clearly happening in the bonfire of our Church.<br /><br />Pope Francis changed Church Teaching on Capital Punishment. <br /><br />Everyone knows this, except those unwilling to admit the obvious.<br /><br />If I were to see the paragraph in question, I would take a big fat black marker pen and scratch the Aquahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06691722006352014613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-70983569431748737622018-08-05T22:43:08.245+01:002018-08-05T22:43:08.245+01:00"...desire to give energy to a movement towar..."...desire to give energy to a movement towards a decisive commitment to favour a mentality..."<br /><br />Oh me, oh my! It sounds as if they've been praying to Saint Humphrey Appleby again. It's a pity that such comic genius is being kept locked away in the Vatican. Imagine if the early Christians had used this sort of stuff at their trials. They would have been acquitted on Sprouting Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13158776272303192025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-22880808425290764392018-08-05T22:32:11.091+01:002018-08-05T22:32:11.091+01:00Ignored is the deterrent effect of the death penal...Ignored is the deterrent effect of the death penalty and its ability to rescue potential future crime victims from monsters such as Ted Bundy, who escaped justice to kill and kill again. Ignored too is the suffering of victims of violent crime.Adam 12https://www.blogger.com/profile/06369624412391261191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-80343536118478473372018-08-05T22:16:45.787+01:002018-08-05T22:16:45.787+01:00My second and third paragraphs explain why I am ce...My second and third paragraphs explain why I am certain that this profoundly silly and unorthodox move does not cross the boundary into overt heresy. If readers do not understand my explanation, I doubt if they will understand me if I say it again.<br /><br />The importance of the phrase intrinsece malum does not originate in Veritatis Splendor, but a great deal of the force of the phrase in Fr John Hunwickehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17766211573399409633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-61629148299898348282018-08-05T19:48:43.745+01:002018-08-05T19:48:43.745+01:00I would add that I fear some in the Church are emp...I would add that I fear some in the Church are emphasizing their editorial discretion to the extent that they deny Pope Francis the power to teach. By requiring use of the term "intrinsic evil" (a term that I do not think Pope Francis has used for abortion or same-sex marriage, even they he clearly teaches against them) in order to say something is a sin, one holds Pope Francis to a Adam Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12212754258648111724noreply@blogger.com