tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post4616663275158643475..comments2024-03-29T09:39:50.604+00:00Comments on Fr Hunwicke's Mutual Enrichment: Veritatis Splendor and the CIAFr John Hunwickehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17766211573399409633noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-35856280855427547872014-12-16T13:37:23.352+00:002014-12-16T13:37:23.352+00:00Hi William. I agree totally that the article link...Hi William. I agree totally that the article linked in my most recent post uses quantifying terms , and I personally found one particular case study presented to be quite compelling ( thanks for taking the time to read it-it wasn't short). As you imply , we use these same quantifying terms in civil law; for example where we speak of “cruel and unusual punishment.” So, it can be reasoned, Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08474622031247588124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-44689693783115236032014-12-15T21:57:40.823+00:002014-12-15T21:57:40.823+00:00William says it well.William says it well.Simon Platthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16196039882299400327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-6630522609038365232014-12-15T21:17:33.822+00:002014-12-15T21:17:33.822+00:00The question is how far the notion of any torture ...The question is how far the notion of any torture as intrinsically evil belongs to the Catholic "moral tradition". Is there a continuous teaching of the Magisterium, Fathers, approved theologians? Is it obvious from the Holy Writ? VS refers to GS, n. 27. There this passage is not backed by a footnote with further reference (although otherwise GS has many) making one to think that this Pulexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13164993172745639593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-59110535486955716352014-12-15T21:07:53.959+00:002014-12-15T21:07:53.959+00:00William, I am very troubled by this, but the brigh...William, I am very troubled by this, but the bright line you imagine exists with regard to ectopic pregnancies, vanishes when<br />you consider ectopic pregnancies not in a fallopian tube, but on parts of the body which cannot be removed. There are ectopics on the peritoneum, on the intestines, on other abdominal organs. These can only be scraped off, which cannot be considered a secondary eulogoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05307036781446427993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-38060092518251476552014-12-15T17:08:54.465+00:002014-12-15T17:08:54.465+00:00Grumpy: I'm certainly not suggesting that tort...Grumpy: I'm certainly not suggesting that torture is immune to definition; but rather, that the definitions do not support the use of the term "intrinsically" evil. The SEP article to which you usefully link makes frequent use of <i>quantifying</i> terms such as "extreme" and "severe". No doubt that is sufficient for jurisprudential purposes, and establishes the Williamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16010105719301587195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-67770187041501368192014-12-14T23:43:06.070+00:002014-12-14T23:43:06.070+00:00If torture were actually so immune to definition, ...If torture were actually so immune to definition, it really would remain one of the world's great mysteries how and why two such dedicated, intellectually and morally-honed pontiffs would ever speak out so adamantly against it. One would be left to surmise they didn't have any tangible accurate idea of precisely what they were babbling on about ; despite the fact they both lived through Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08474622031247588124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-67535387696597229682014-12-14T19:46:36.295+00:002014-12-14T19:46:36.295+00:00The problem is that for something to be said to be...The problem is that for something to be said to be <i>intrinsically</i> evil one needs to be able to define what types of actions are covered by the term, and which are not. Anything which exists on a sliding scale cannot be said to be intrinsically evil unless one is reprobating everything on the entire scale, from the very mildest to the most extreme. <br /><br />Abortion, for example, can be Williamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16010105719301587195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-42131166751921515632014-12-14T18:14:22.722+00:002014-12-14T18:14:22.722+00:00Is there a difference between "torture" ...Is there a difference between "torture" and "interrogate"? Don't get the two mixed up with respect to the information you are attempting to glean from an enemy who wants to kill you.Woodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02461037782982511931noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-69001281840658356812014-12-14T12:56:25.638+00:002014-12-14T12:56:25.638+00:00Gaudium et Spes was cited by Fr. H at the outset -...<i>Gaudium et Spes</i> was cited by Fr. H at the outset - if one is going to flout its ascendant nature , one must equally flout the ascendant nature of <i>Veritatis Splendor</i> . . .<br />- <i> "Intrinsic evil": it is not licit to do evil that good may come of it (cf. Rom 3:8)"</i><br />- <i>"These are the acts which, in the Church's moral tradition, have been termed &Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08474622031247588124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-87763397438295007422014-12-14T05:51:07.384+00:002014-12-14T05:51:07.384+00:00If memory serves, at least one French priest justi...If memory serves, at least one French priest justified their torture and other such activities, e.g. crevettes Bigeard, as essentially consented to by the FLN types when they signed up for combat, mutilation and death on the battlefield, so why not in the jail, or the sea?Woodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08910654300435533408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-86789691786659790552014-12-13T20:30:24.360+00:002014-12-13T20:30:24.360+00:00Wikileaks informs us of the CIA's surprise at ...Wikileaks informs us of the CIA's surprise at the outcome of the 2005 papal election. This mirrors John Allen's shock live on CNN at the time. In his biography of Josef Ratzinger, Allen assured us that his subject could not possibly become pope. Incidentally, Allen's employer (part of the Time Warner communications empire) is worthy of closer examination. Our good friends Karl Rahner Sadie Vacantisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04823532366874114366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-39950824641250104452014-12-13T20:04:02.951+00:002014-12-13T20:04:02.951+00:00Father.God Bless you.I like your writing very much...Father.God Bless you.I like your writing very much-keep writing!!What are your views on the steady increase in vocations to the Traditional orders?My view is that they are a joy to behold !Philip Johnson.philipjohnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16128964006463059159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-38525465139491455502014-12-13T18:30:45.834+00:002014-12-13T18:30:45.834+00:00But good ends do justify wrong means - in actual l...But good ends do justify wrong means - in actual life, rather than the high abstraction of Pope John Paul's thinking. If it is necessary to kill one person to prevent him murdering several more, his killing is justified. It remains a wrong, but the circumstances make it a justifiable wrong. Moral actions do not take place in a Platonic fantasy higher world, they can only take place in the Savonarolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12547523172291007631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-26699794673024378612014-12-13T18:30:11.500+00:002014-12-13T18:30:11.500+00:00But good ends do justify wrong means - in actual l...But good ends do justify wrong means - in actual life, rather than the high abstraction of Pope John Paul's thinking. If it is necessary to kill one person to prevent him murdering several more, his killing is justified. It remains a wrong, but the circumstances make it a justifiable wrong. Moral actions do not take place in a Platonic fantasy higher world, they can only take place in the Savonarolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12547523172291007631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-73673810182114490552014-12-13T16:32:38.055+00:002014-12-13T16:32:38.055+00:00It can't be intrinsically evil.
St. Alphonsus...It can't be intrinsically evil.<br /><br />St. Alphonsus Liguori cites 10 earlier approved Catholic authors when he endorses torture(de Lugo and others) whose teachings he synthesizes in this section of his own classic work, Theologia Moralis. <br /><br />I thought when there was a consensus of Theologians from that period according to Blessed Pius IX Tuas Libenter, that the teaching was to Noah Moerbeekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01429351174719821413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-23201644928019613542014-12-13T15:47:02.214+00:002014-12-13T15:47:02.214+00:00What theological note is attached to saying "...What theological note is attached to saying "torture in intrinsically evil"? Has it been "constantly and very firmly" taught? Held "always, everywhere and by all"? Is it in the Bible? Did Vatican II impose it definitively? Did any pope? I am forced to ask the same questions about slavery. If slavery were intrinsically evil, could he in effect say, "Be a good Fr PJMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12597780307057121375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-70658618151975940542014-12-13T13:09:02.376+00:002014-12-13T13:09:02.376+00:00A position reiterated by Pope Benedict XVI in 2006...A position reiterated by Pope Benedict XVI in 2006:<br /><br /><i>Public authorities must be ever vigilant in this task, eschewing any means of punishment or correction that either undermine or debase the human dignity of prisoners. In this regard, I reiterate that the prohibition against torture “cannot be contravened under any circumstances"</i> (<a href="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/_https://www.blogger.com/profile/10739893229122217454noreply@blogger.com