tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post44415036817016999..comments2024-03-27T17:29:51.954+00:00Comments on Fr Hunwicke's Mutual Enrichment: Ordinariate consciencesFr John Hunwickehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17766211573399409633noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-5765440388931705162011-01-11T15:10:05.896+00:002011-01-11T15:10:05.896+00:00whilst I understand your need to justify re-ordina...whilst I understand your need to justify re-ordination, your recollection of opinion in catholic quarters concerning the Methodist union optionnin in the 1960's is not as many of us recall it. We rejected it then as ecclesiological nonsense and do so today.Mr CatOLickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12115681292322371687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-16280584759235724942010-12-07T16:39:43.682+00:002010-12-07T16:39:43.682+00:00There seem to me two questions regarding "val...There seem to me two questions regarding "validity":<br />1. does Anglican Ordination impart the character of the priesthood? <i>Apostolicae curae</i> says that ordinations deriving from the Edwardine Ordinal do not.<br />2. does Anglican Ordination convey grace? and do Anglican Eucharists convey grace? If the Orders are not valid, then they do not do so <i>ex opere operato</i>; howeverAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-85451182495579611002010-12-06T18:08:23.337+00:002010-12-06T18:08:23.337+00:00Fr William,
You ask: Is it "superscrupulous&...Fr William,<br /><br />You ask: <i>Is it "superscrupulous" to suppose that there may be some kind of a problem if the very act by which one's ministry in the Catholic Church is inaugurated is also an act of disobedience to the defined teaching of that Church?<br /><br />Or am I being "superscrupulous" when I refuse to re-baptise someone who was baptised as an infant?</i><James Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13177183667215351026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-63864384940133807702010-12-05T10:41:27.844+00:002010-12-05T10:41:27.844+00:00(i) But did the Episcopal Church have the authorit...(i) <i>But did the Episcopal Church have the authority to ordain me as a Catholic priest? When I was an Episcopalian, I thought so. Now that I am Catholic, the whole idea seems absurd.</i><br /><br />(ii) <i>[...] universal acceptance as a priest, the experience of Communio throughout the world and throughout the ages, is necessarily elusive for a priest not in communion with the Holy See.</i><brSir Watkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02000106556898498656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-59001357926101991512010-12-05T01:39:15.799+00:002010-12-05T01:39:15.799+00:00A great deal of trouble arises from this being a c...A great deal of trouble arises from this being a classic definition argument - what is meant by conditional being at issue.<br /><br />As may be at further length investigated, "conditional" re-ordination (or re-confirmation, or re-baptism) is done when a prudent doubt exists that the sacrament was conferred validly: BUT this means, NOT "it may have been valid, so let's confer Joshuahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17387698013828199070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-55167999345520403432010-12-04T16:00:47.992+00:002010-12-04T16:00:47.992+00:00There is disagreement amongst 'traditionalist&...There is disagreement amongst 'traditionalist' Catholics, as to whether the episcopal sonsecrations performed according to the new rite of Pope Paul VI be valid, and consequently, and whether priestly and diaconal ordinations peformed by such ''bishops'', even according to the old ordination rite, be valid. Those who are convinced of the invalidity of said ordinations are Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-76436101168075283192010-12-04T12:25:02.962+00:002010-12-04T12:25:02.962+00:00Despite seeking at all times to be guided by the l...Despite seeking at all times to be guided by the lamp of Charity...<br /><br />I can't help feeling that in not a few cases, worries of this kind are a fond thing vainly invented - an excuse, if you will.<br /><br />I think Dr Pusey was a sacerdos Domini. I don't think I'm sure whether he was a presbyter ecclesiae.Enrico Dantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12225046023754109591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-63143723690335294112010-12-04T07:54:07.072+00:002010-12-04T07:54:07.072+00:00The notion of authority to minister - present in t...The notion of authority to minister - present in the Edwardine Ordinal - identifies precisely what Anglican priests lack in relation to the Universal Church. One may find oneself accepted here and there at Catholic altars - but stories of such acceptance are presently declining, it seems, for obvious reasons - but universal acceptance as a priest, the experience of Communio throughout the world Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02920258944978279395noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-22810410823061305222010-12-04T01:06:17.948+00:002010-12-04T01:06:17.948+00:00Maybe the solution is to ordain all Anglicans as B...Maybe the solution is to ordain all Anglicans as Byzantine-rite Catholic priests and then give them bi-ritual faculties. As the bishop, having put his omophorion and hands on the candidate's head, says in the Byzantine tradition: "Divine grace, which always heals that which is infirm and completes that which is lacking, ordains the most devout Deacon (name) to the office of Priest. Let Dr. Adam DeVillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06505315831493271933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-4135691431341464712010-12-03T23:12:53.419+00:002010-12-03T23:12:53.419+00:00Before I was ordained a Catholic priest, I was nev...Before I was ordained a Catholic priest, I was never asked to renounce my ministry and sacramental acts as an Episcopal (USA) priest. I still believe my Episcopal ministry was as valid as the Episcopal Church could make it. But did the Episcopal Church have the authority to ordain me as a Catholic priest? When I was an Episcopalian, I thought so. Now that I am Catholic, the whole idea seems Fr. Ernie Davishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12316458047539105469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-23908309682330411112010-12-03T21:11:50.037+00:002010-12-03T21:11:50.037+00:00Little Black Sambo,
your comment 'I am with Fr...Little Black Sambo,<br />your comment 'I am with Fr Levi on this (or at least I think I am?)' is priceless and says it all! Confession being good for the soul, I have to confess that I was somewhat confused about this issue. I initially thought that the (re)ordinations of the ordinariate priests would be conditional in the formal sense. (& incidentally, there is precedent in the casePaddyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10112119118958158131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-12507221761010123892010-12-03T20:16:50.660+00:002010-12-03T20:16:50.660+00:00Fr William, no matter what anybody says, the (re-)...Fr William, no matter what anybody says, the (re-)ordination of Anglican priests is <i>inherently</i> conditional. Undergo the ordination and leave it in the hands of God. The result is, you are a priest, not only in the eyes of God (which you already believed yourself to be) but in the eyes of all to whom you may be called upon to minister - which is extremely important. I am with Fr Levi on Little Black Sambohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16699227938165106710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-29199387539464488442010-12-03T19:04:03.432+00:002010-12-03T19:04:03.432+00:00In an earlier age, such a reunion might well have ...In an earlier age, such a reunion might well have been expected to be accompanied by a revised statement with regard to Anglican orders, mentioning something about the "Dutch touch," etc., perhaps, and thereby changing "absolute" to "conditional" ordination for Anglican priests entering full communion with Holy Rome. However, in the current climate with women clergyDerek Christensonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12686471103851060271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-37533708798094662402010-12-03T17:19:07.370+00:002010-12-03T17:19:07.370+00:00Fr William,
having just re-read your post, perhaps...Fr William,<br />having just re-read your post, perhaps I have completely missed the point you were so kindly attempting to draw to my attention - which is that 'conditional' re-ordination is not on the cards for Anglican priests who are to be priest in the Ordinariate; in which case what I have had to say on the matter is irelevant (as usual!).<br /><br />ApologiesPaddyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10112119118958158131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-44937947722946301772010-12-03T16:45:58.015+00:002010-12-03T16:45:58.015+00:00Back in '94 when a friend (now sadly departed ...Back in '94 when a friend (now sadly departed this life) and I were considering asking to be received into the RC Church he maintained that he could not undergo Confirmation a second time and never took the matter further. I did not believe that I would gain anything I didn't already have, but, that there should be "no possible doubt, no possible, probable shadow of doubt, no Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09492429133293820476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-77801030998947489672010-12-03T16:25:55.588+00:002010-12-03T16:25:55.588+00:00Dear Fr William,
perhaps I do miss the point - I ...Dear Fr William,<br /><br />perhaps I do miss the point - I am a great one for doing that ... sometimes wilfully so! If there is information available online that would assist me in having a clearer understanding of this matter, I would be most grateful to be pointed towards it.<br /><br />Currently, my own take on the matter is that both before and after Apostolicae Curae the RCC has always Paddyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10112119118958158131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-10558194053412852072010-12-03T13:37:30.255+00:002010-12-03T13:37:30.255+00:00Of course, in the Good Old Days, when conditional ...Of course, in the Good Old Days, when conditional baptism was administered, the priest would hear the baptizand's confession beforehand. He would then go to confession himself, since at least one of those sacraments would have been invalid. Perhaps those bishops who absolutely re-ordain Anglicans do the same - it certainly isn't for individuals to ask them!Enrico Dantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12225046023754109591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-72245600268073162412010-12-03T13:30:17.535+00:002010-12-03T13:30:17.535+00:00Fr Levi: I fear you miss the point. Conditional (r...Fr Levi: I fear you miss the point. <i>Conditional</i> (re-)ordination is precisely what is not on offer, unless there is a change of heart in the relevant Roman dicastery. If it were, then the conscientious difficulties of many (whether superscrupulous or hypertender, I forebear to judge) would be assuaged.<br /><br />Some time ago in (I think) New Directions, someone wrote to the effect that ifWilliamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16010105719301587195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-80943517834646649622010-12-03T13:17:41.119+00:002010-12-03T13:17:41.119+00:00Si quis dixerit, in tribus sacramentis, baptismo s...<i>Si quis dixerit, in tribus sacramentis, baptismo scilicet, confirmatione et ordine, non imprimi characterem in anima, hoc est signum quoddam spirituale et indelebile, unde <b>ea iterari non possunt</b>: an. s.</i> (Conc. Trid., sess. VII.; DS 1609; referred to in CCC 1121)<br /><br />Is it "superscrupulous" to suppose that there may be some kind of a problem if the very act by which Williamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16010105719301587195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-28868294559909185902010-12-03T12:57:31.350+00:002010-12-03T12:57:31.350+00:00Presumably the problem that some have with the ide...Presumably the problem that some have with the idea with re-ordination is that they find it suggestive that their previous ordination (& hence their ministry & (esp.) their administration of the sacraments) was invalid. <br /><br />However, my understanding of the purpose of conditional re-ordination is that it does not so much maintain that the recipient's orders are invalid but Paddyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10112119118958158131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-52533108883103564022010-12-03T11:57:32.846+00:002010-12-03T11:57:32.846+00:00Of course many RC clergy are re-ordained when ente...Of course many RC clergy are re-ordained when entering the Greek Church - supporting "Fr Ted's" anecdote.Rubricariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05050302650867319277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-26180656783195554922010-12-03T10:52:48.398+00:002010-12-03T10:52:48.398+00:00I am minded of a report of a conversation between ...I am minded of a report of a conversation between two clergy, a Cardinal Archbishop and an Anglican religious in priestly orders.<br /><br />"Tell me, father", asked the Anglican, "Am I a priest or am I not? Yes or No!" "Of course you are", replied the Cardinal and paused before adding with a twinkle in his eye,"for your own people."<br /><br />Apocryphal Fr Tedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04783526602064844509noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-11698193542577297662010-12-03T10:41:58.358+00:002010-12-03T10:41:58.358+00:00St Chad.St Chad.Little Black Sambohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16699227938165106710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-41765598970403597272010-12-03T10:00:39.210+00:002010-12-03T10:00:39.210+00:00I have also noted a recent trend in many places fo...I have also noted a recent trend in many places for any new ministry to be commissioned by anointing and laying on of hands with prayer. It is a sign to them and others that the ministry is valid and authorised.<br />(Re-)ordination would present me with no problems, in fact I think it would help in the process.Doodlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10476313122409864359noreply@blogger.com