tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post3215723085187516087..comments2024-03-29T01:24:45.251+00:00Comments on Fr Hunwicke's Mutual Enrichment: You won't like this ...Fr John Hunwickehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17766211573399409633noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-12152867207781086542011-01-12T12:09:14.940+00:002011-01-12T12:09:14.940+00:00This comment has been removed by the author.Assholehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07758977277015850438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-7744505299117068722011-01-12T12:08:54.938+00:002011-01-12T12:08:54.938+00:00It's entirely unfair to characterize as "...It's entirely unfair to characterize as "fundamentalists" those of us who hold everything put forward by the 20th Century Liturgical Movement as suspect. In my experience, those who throw around the word "fundamentalist" do so because they either have no idea what those they are calling "fundamentalist" actually think, or they themselves can not support their Assholehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07758977277015850438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-43892282255264930702011-01-08T01:57:47.155+00:002011-01-08T01:57:47.155+00:00Christopher,
I'll look around for it, thanks....Christopher,<br /><br />I'll look around for it, thanks. Figuring out what music to sing, both at Mass and the Office, (in the OF) makes my head hurt like none other. All the contradictions and lack of translations of proper texts can be infuriating.carlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11331034984608859225noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-66330864561892470512011-01-07T22:52:25.172+00:002011-01-07T22:52:25.172+00:00Carl,
No, the Ordo Cantus Missae isn't the sa...Carl,<br /><br />No, the Ordo Cantus Missae isn't the same kind of document as the IGMR. It contains those chants not found in the 1908 Graduale, and rubrics listing the proper chants for each day. Most of these are reproduced exactly in the 1974 & 1979 Gradualia, but unfortunately the important introductory section cannot be found elsewhere; it contains some handy rubrics that few Christopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14327873527376582757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-34313944813950434672011-01-06T13:41:52.349+00:002011-01-06T13:41:52.349+00:00As far as I can make it out Bugnini "invented...As far as I can make it out Bugnini "invented" a new "liturgical principle": no changing of vestments during a single celebration. Hence, where the Asperges survives it is administerd in the chasuble; only one type of mitre is worn in pontifical ceremonies; and, most absurdly, the use of white Mass vestments throughout the Easter Vigil rite depite the fact that it is clearly avetusta ecclesiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09454059029260192711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-89261394211432597282011-01-06T03:41:50.848+00:002011-01-06T03:41:50.848+00:00Christopher,
Thank you, it is a good deal clearer...Christopher,<br /><br />Thank you, it is a good deal clearer now. <br /><br />What is the Ordo Cantus Missae? I looked it up, and I understand it as a rough equivalent to the IGMR or IGLH, but for the music at Mass. Is this correct?<br /><br />And, well, I'm not ordained yet..carlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11331034984608859225noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-45153724149468556352011-01-06T00:52:09.171+00:002011-01-06T00:52:09.171+00:00Carl,
No problem.
1: Yes.
2: Actually, the Vati...Carl,<br /><br />No problem.<br /><br />1: Yes.<br /><br />2: Actually, the Vatican has not issued a new editio typica of the Graduale since 1908 (it remains the official source of chants in the OF, although with additions and rubrical changes as supplied by the Ordo Cantus Missae (2nd ed., 1982)). Of course new chants had to be provided for new feasts - perhaps someone else could explain how Christopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14327873527376582757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-6145063751100086802011-01-06T00:50:25.041+00:002011-01-06T00:50:25.041+00:00Joseph,
Interesting that you bring up the Pius XI...Joseph,<br /><br />Interesting that you bring up the Pius XII Psalter in this context. It’s certainly an anomaly, but then again, the Graduale is already full of different textual traditions, so I can’t see what harm yet another one does in principle. If nothing else, it serves as a reminder of the origins of certain chants and feasts in that rather special pre-conciliar period. That said, I Christopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14327873527376582757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-70767584611300282032011-01-05T20:24:00.817+00:002011-01-05T20:24:00.817+00:00Christopher and Joseph,
Thanks for the explanati...Christopher and Joseph, <br /><br />Thanks for the explanation, but it raises even more questions for me. Please excuse my ignorance.<br /><br />1) (To make sure I understand your answer) So the discrepancies are minor textual things (like a word here or there), and not entirely different texts?<br /><br />2) The Graduale Romanum of 1908. Is the Graduale not updated with each new MR? Why would carlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11331034984608859225noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-63223691905078327422011-01-05T16:28:31.229+00:002011-01-05T16:28:31.229+00:00John,
The 1951 form of the Easter Vigil was exper...John,<br /><br />The 1951 form of the Easter Vigil was experimental and was celebrated just that year. In 1952 a second form appeared, with some further modifications, including the addition of 'Lauds' at its end. This again was experimental and optional so churches like the Birmingham and Brompton Oratories didn't celebrate it. This form was then extended for a further three years Rubricariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05050302650867319277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-76262987029535813922011-01-05T14:41:15.501+00:002011-01-05T14:41:15.501+00:00Rubricarius wrote:
Reading the 'blogosphere...Rubricarius wrote:<br /><i>Reading the 'blogosphere' it seems there is a general swell of opinion against the obnoxious 1950s messing up of Holy Week - about time says I.</i><br /><br />Leaving aside the size of the "general swell of opinion", I am intrigued to know precisely why those in favour of the pre-1955 rites of Holy Week are so dis-enamoured of the reforms of that year.John F H Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01032884551581324489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-17507650729027029902011-01-05T12:51:54.227+00:002011-01-05T12:51:54.227+00:00Yes, Christopher, that's what I meant. Every n...Yes, Christopher, that's what I meant. Every now and then you come accross 'Cum' in the Missal and 'Dum' in the chant books, for example. Not hugely urgent but a highly anomolous situation even so.<br /><br />Another bizarre thing I discovered with chant texts is that in a very small number of cases (eg St Joseph the Worker) the text uses the Pius XII Psalter. Its extremely Joseph Shawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06587987442560784792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-28577838106258980772011-01-05T10:21:24.345+00:002011-01-05T10:21:24.345+00:00Carl,
I'll have a go at the question you put ...Carl,<br /><br />I'll have a go at the question you put to Joseph (although perhaps he would answer it differently).<br /><br />The 1962 Missale Romanum has just about the same texts for the Proper chants as you would find in previous editions going back a few centuries. The official source for the music of most of these chants is the Graduale Romanum of 1908, which contains the melodies as Christopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14327873527376582757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-21588399826366098262011-01-04T23:51:56.146+00:002011-01-04T23:51:56.146+00:00I'm very sympathetic to the modifications sugg...I'm very sympathetic to the modifications suggested - <br />1. allow some ancient collects, prefaces, sequences, to be used ad libitum,<br />2. restore most of the features of the pre-55 version, once again ad lib.,<br />3. provide provision for the celebration of more recently canonized saints, once again ad lib.<br /><br />But the idea of the Missal being tinkered with by a committee, even davidforsterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15603145004197815827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-74487838143772970502011-01-04T20:11:10.857+00:002011-01-04T20:11:10.857+00:00"Have I got this right?"
No, for once I..."Have I got this right?"<br /><br />No, for once I believe you have got it very wrong Fr. H.<br /><br />If anyone is serious about not fossilising, and I confess to sharing Dr. Shaw's view about nincompoops, then a far better reference point would be the 1920 edition of the <i>Missale Romanum</i>, probably the finest edition of the twentieth century. It of course has a superfluityRubricariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05050302650867319277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-56575976603871754842011-01-04T19:32:16.247+00:002011-01-04T19:32:16.247+00:00Joseph Shaw,
Could you speak more about the &quo...Joseph Shaw, <br /><br />Could you speak more about the "incomplete restoration of chant texts" in 61/2? I'm not familiar with what the situation is there.<br /><br />Figulus, <br /><br />How does it help your prayer at Mass to flip through a hand missal to follow along with the priest? I've never been inclined toward this, and prefer to just listen to the prayer the priest is carlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11331034984608859225noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-4924582330019648122011-01-04T18:38:35.040+00:002011-01-04T18:38:35.040+00:00While it is difficult to object to an improvement ...While it is difficult to object to an improvement in punctuation, I would do even this with great care. In some cases at least, these commas, colons, question marks, etc. are relics of a much older chant notation. It would be too bad if such relics were cast out for the sake of progress.<br /><br />As for optional prefaces, I dissent. The OF rite suffers from a surplus of these. On a feria in Figulushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13549064050271896212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-55428094190841731572011-01-04T17:31:15.072+00:002011-01-04T17:31:15.072+00:00While I can subscribe to some of the proposed chan...While I can subscribe to some of the proposed changes here, I think we need some stability. The Mass should not be a ‘moving target’ subject to the whims, desires, strong feelings etc. of everyone concerned. To a former US President’s remark about the inability to please “all of the people all of the time” I would add: “…and some of people you can never please.”<br /><br />We have had Mass <i>ad GORhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14313101159848740722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-76545534653970688662011-01-04T17:06:12.147+00:002011-01-04T17:06:12.147+00:00Sorry, I don`t know how that `te` got in after San...Sorry, I don`t know how that `te` got in after Sancte.Fr Michael Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15320336535138538635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-69549433451447788562011-01-04T16:58:39.949+00:002011-01-04T16:58:39.949+00:00Was it?Well, there you go. I don't have a copy...Was it?Well, there you go. I don't have a copy.Fr John Hunwickehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17766211573399409633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-56219225343083166672011-01-04T16:56:04.852+00:002011-01-04T16:56:04.852+00:00Yes the 1962 liturgical books are in dire need of ...Yes the 1962 liturgical books are in dire need of reform:<br /><br />1. Abolition of the 1945 Psalter<br />2. Restoration of the Holy Week rites before 1956<br />3. Abolition of 1960 rubrical changes to breviary and missalAduliohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00534730218402742905noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-69576982905782615982011-01-04T16:01:23.827+00:002011-01-04T16:01:23.827+00:00The pattern Domine, Sancte te Pater, omnipotens ae...The pattern Domine, Sancte te Pater, omnipotens aeterne Deus was mandated in 1962.Fr Michael Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15320336535138538635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-34038752032496459802011-01-04T14:37:57.191+00:002011-01-04T14:37:57.191+00:00Corrigenda: En fin, perhaps, in the future, author...Corrigenda: En fin, perhaps, in the future, authorised vernacular translations of Missale Romanum, or parts of it, might be allowed for optional use in weekday Masses. This would eventually supplant the Novus Ordo, which could then be abolished. As it seems to me that those now attached to the Novus Ordo, are so, principally due to its use of the vernacular, to which they have grown accustomed. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-8059366044826906382011-01-04T14:31:30.818+00:002011-01-04T14:31:30.818+00:00Father,
I have seen Latin Altar Missals with no co...Father,<br />I have seen Latin Altar Missals with no commas between the words Domine sancte Pater omnipotens aeterne Deus, with the comma after ''sancte'', and with the comma after ''Domine''. I prefer the way you suggest ''Domine, sancte Pater, omnipotens aeterne Deus'' not only for the reason mentioned by you, but also because 1) this way the Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-25377455260778574812011-01-04T13:53:40.376+00:002011-01-04T13:53:40.376+00:00A fascinating post, Father, to which I append some...A fascinating post, Father, to which I append some random thoughts.<br /><br /><i> I would punctuate Domine, sancte Pater, omnipotens aeterne Deus.</i><br /><br />which happens to reflect the punctuation adopted by Cranmer in 1549 and retained in the B.C.P. since:<br /><i> O Lorde, holy Father, almightie everlastyng God.</i><br />Thus demonstrating, once more, that the knack of Englysshing Latin John F H Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01032884551581324489noreply@blogger.com