tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post255592271549055339..comments2024-03-18T20:38:40.751+00:00Comments on Fr Hunwicke's Mutual Enrichment: S Basil and his mouthFr John Hunwickehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17766211573399409633noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-16791812207971276552021-06-19T20:43:01.242+01:002021-06-19T20:43:01.242+01:00All this discussion of Latin pronunciation is well...All this discussion of Latin pronunciation is well and good but it can traumatize folks. In Grade nine in Ottawa at St. Patrick's College High School (run by the Oblates of Mary Immaculate) I failed Latin. In those days when you failed a course one had to repeat the entire year. Now, at the age of seventy I am reliving that horrible event thanks to this discussion thread. I cannot but surmiseJohn the Madhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17899858119936750764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-45458875022410980862021-06-17T12:23:28.366+01:002021-06-17T12:23:28.366+01:00Moreover, I can recall a few English priests who d...Moreover, I can recall a few English priests who deliver 'Dominus vobiscum' in beautifully rounded Home Counties vowels.PMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06144651697262763099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-38993415068785620322021-06-17T12:20:30.685+01:002021-06-17T12:20:30.685+01:00I saw recently on YouTube a recording of an Oxford...I saw recently on YouTube a recording of an Oxford choir recreating the chant from a manuscript from a fifteenth-century German nunnery. They sang gentium with a hard g, not the soft Italianate consonant that I had always used.PMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06144651697262763099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-85840467219977663942021-06-14T19:10:19.522+01:002021-06-14T19:10:19.522+01:00I received my MA at the hands of Sir Kenneth Weare...I received my MA at the hands of Sir Kenneth Weare who was very much a “ istyus yuniversitaytis” manvetusta ecclesiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09454059029260192711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-47478040692164722432015-05-05T18:32:05.900+01:002015-05-05T18:32:05.900+01:00A charming short introduction to regional and hist...A charming short introduction to regional and historic pronunciations of Latin may be found in Frederick Brittain, <i>Latin in Church</i>, rev. enl. edn, Alcuin Club Tracts 28 (London: Mowbray, 1955).<br /><br />Intended for singers, but useful for others, is Harold Copeman, <i>Singing in Latin</i> (publ. by the author, 1990), which has tabular presentations of all the regional pronunciations Jessehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17809446580681184264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-46040281819579948292015-05-04T22:55:22.525+01:002015-05-04T22:55:22.525+01:00Following William's comment, there was a wonde...Following William's comment, there was a wonderful programme on Radio 3 in the early 90's in which the various methods of Latin pronunciation were discussed. Harold Macmillan was cited as one of the last of the old school pronunciation because as he himself charmingly said, he knew no other. 'vivat Regina' became vie vat ray jina rather than 'weewat raygeena' There was anjohnfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16233791349837340770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-44196855868877436202015-05-04T18:14:40.525+01:002015-05-04T18:14:40.525+01:00One problem with the German pronunciation is that ...One problem with the German pronunciation is that 'y' is pronounced as u-umlaut and terminal 'e's are weak. This is particularly noticeable in 'Kyrie' and 'miserere'. Soft 'c's are 'ts' and all 'g's are hard. The 'oe' diphthong is pronounced as o-umlaut, so we have Pater Noster 'kvee es in tsurlis'.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-56716290467827938032015-05-04T13:19:42.488+01:002015-05-04T13:19:42.488+01:00While there are plenty of incorrect ways of pronou...While there are plenty of incorrect ways of pronouncing Latin, one can only really speak of a specific, "correct" pronunciation <i>either:</i><br />(i) in relation to a particular class, in a particular place, in a particular era. Thus, for example, the "classical" pronunciation which I was taught is that set out in W. Sidney Allen's "Vox Latina" – which, while Williamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16010105719301587195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-1934026261314486512015-05-03T19:02:50.322+01:002015-05-03T19:02:50.322+01:00Fr John,
Christ is Risen!
Never doubt the import...Fr John,<br /><br />Christ is Risen!<br /><br />Never doubt the importance of precision in liturgics, for it is the bane of the progressive impulse, relishing as it does any tiny sliver of ignorance or apathy through which it can slither and devour the tasty morsels of tradition and continuity.Stephenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12833345391579579562noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-65027730610882308922015-05-03T18:53:22.906+01:002015-05-03T18:53:22.906+01:00I'm another person who would be very grateful ...I'm another person who would be very grateful if you, Father, would write an article on Latin pronunciation. I'm a student of Latin and Greek, and, when reading classical texts (which will, I guess, for the first three years almost always be the case) we use the classical pronunciation.<br /><br />In high school we used the "traditional" pronunciation which is, I assume, the oneIvanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14280337791464054428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-35294211303680082222015-05-03T16:37:13.157+01:002015-05-03T16:37:13.157+01:00If anyone is interested, I posted the notes from t...If anyone is interested, I posted the notes from the Liber Usualis on the pronunciation of liturgical Latin on my blog a while back. The relevant post is here: http://ccfather.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/liturgical-latin-pronunciation.html<br /><br />I would be interested in Father's (and others') comments, of course.Ben Trovatohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15299230935468606845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-37031731465382767582015-05-03T12:08:29.270+01:002015-05-03T12:08:29.270+01:00A number of commenters have brought up a topic I h...A number of commenters have brought up a topic I had been meaning to suggest to you, Father, that is: correct Latin pronunciation. Can you enlighten us on its evolution? A palimpsest (as Sherlock would say…) perhaps, on the subject – digital rather than material, of course?<br /><br />In the dim past when first learning Latin, we were informed that the pronunciation used was ‘Ecclesiastical’ GORhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14313101159848740722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-38810659399174525732015-05-03T10:11:30.151+01:002015-05-03T10:11:30.151+01:00When I was at a country grammar school in the '...When I was at a country grammar school in the 'Fifties, we were always taught the "w for v" pronunciation. I didn't realize things had changed until I came to the OU, and Italianate pronunciation, in the 2000s.<br /><br />I do recall a complete standoff between the Classics staff and the Music staff once, over the pronunciation of "Gloria in excelsis deo", which the Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-31408070475690605272015-05-02T23:08:22.364+01:002015-05-02T23:08:22.364+01:00Vetus Latina (Beuron/Stuttgart) renders Ecclus 15:...Vetus Latina (Beuron/Stuttgart) renders Ecclus 15:5 thusly: 'et in medio ecclesiae aperiet os illius adimplebit illum &c'.<br /><br />'Os suum' does not seem to make sense in the context.<br /><br />Regarding Rose Marie's comment, I remember reading that the Oratorians in the 19th century were criticized for introducing the Italian pronunciation to England. It's John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-67955647210059747782015-05-02T22:38:20.798+01:002015-05-02T22:38:20.798+01:00The Lord open "his" (Athanasius') mo...The Lord open "his" (Athanasius') mouth and fills "him" (the man not just his mouth) with wisdom - this makes clear that God doesn't just put words into the mouth of a prophet, but graces their spirit with His own Holy Spirit, filling their minds with a true vision of His Word, thereby enabling them to speak authentically in his Name. God reveals by inspiration not Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-70609782332046514962015-05-02T19:41:46.183+01:002015-05-02T19:41:46.183+01:00There's a website (bensira.org) which shows He...There's a website (bensira.org) which shows Hebrew manuscript fragments, and 15.5 is on the frament A VI R. It looks as if the subject is wisdom (which first appears in 14.20, and it (she) opens his mouth (of the man who is blessed).Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11588080784955073469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-13462484890302264202015-05-02T19:33:41.649+01:002015-05-02T19:33:41.649+01:00No pedantry detected from across the pond, Father....No pedantry detected from across the pond, Father. This is a very enlightening discourse. <br /><br />Our Catholic high school Latin teacher dutifully taught us to say "Weni, widi, wici," which I thought was ludicrous as no one would think to say "A-weh,Maria." This was in the Sixties when we were all familiar with liturgical Latin. Surely the Church has the most reliable, if Donna Bethellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03889995101309151034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-40607645675854984792015-05-02T18:14:57.294+01:002015-05-02T18:14:57.294+01:00I have a proper unabridged KJV on my desk, complet...I have a proper unabridged KJV on my desk, complete with Ecclesiasticus, Wisdom and all the rest: so is it a Protestant or Catholic Bible?<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-51250750991869261182015-05-02T18:07:27.319+01:002015-05-02T18:07:27.319+01:00If the bible on your desk doesn't have this bo...<i>If the bible on your desk doesn't have this book in it, under either name, it means you are using a Protestant bible. Get a Catholic one!</i><br /><br />Dear Father. I am a simple man who was born in the hills of Vermont and I was learnt by my elders that a man who is protestant can not be considered an expert of the Bible by the simple fact that he is a protestant.<br /><br />That is, if Mick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-8837784822525930622015-05-02T17:49:17.411+01:002015-05-02T17:49:17.411+01:00@Unknown: A neat idea, but unfortunately incompati...@Unknown: A neat idea, but unfortunately incompatible with the grammar. "Os" is neuter, whereas "eum" is masculine.Williamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16010105719301587195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-41176258746792820812015-05-02T16:59:16.374+01:002015-05-02T16:59:16.374+01:00Is eum also ambiguous:
"aperuit os eius et i...Is <b>eum</b> also ambiguous:<br /><br /><i>"aperuit os eius et implevit eum"</i><br /><br />Could it refer back to <b>os</b> just as easily as the subject to which <b>eius</b> refers? This would be a more parallel construction, and avoids perhaps a more modern separation of mind and body than would have been present at the original writing?steberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15637398285925271488noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-38489333010997967512015-05-02T14:52:04.811+01:002015-05-02T14:52:04.811+01:00The Vetus Latina database, hosted online by Brepol...The <i>Vetus Latina</i> database, hosted online by Brepols, consists of digital reproduction of typewritten and hand-annotated cards, recording the biblical readings quoted by early Christian writers. I have never figured out how to discover, from the database alone, whence each reading has been taken.<br /><br />Here is what we get as the (or a) <i>Vetus Latina</i> reading for Ecclus. 15:5 (Jessehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17809446580681184264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-70032533730873513342015-05-02T13:38:25.395+01:002015-05-02T13:38:25.395+01:00I'm just a dabbler in Latin, and don't rea...I'm just a dabbler in Latin, and don't really know it, altho' I plan to study it in the near future. That interpretation though, fits well with Psalm 50:17, "O Lord, _You_ shall open my lips, and my mouth will declare your praise," and I imagine that that was the intention of the composer of this introit.<br />Incidentally, Father, how often does the subject come after the John H. Graneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07217298274393450604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-14103240752175351722015-05-02T12:16:32.445+01:002015-05-02T12:16:32.445+01:00A nice point Father – and nicely made!
Despite ha...A nice point Father – and nicely made!<br /><br />Despite having little claim to classical expertise, one can appreciate a fine point and acknowledge that ‘eius’ is the dead giveaway here.<br /><br />As to negative attitudes towards classicists, be consoled that Ecclesiasticus would assuredly number them among the <i>homines stulti</i> rather than the <i>homines sensati</i>…GORhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14313101159848740722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-44885569055698822092015-05-02T11:15:58.158+01:002015-05-02T11:15:58.158+01:00It's not classical pedantry; it's a mistra...It's not classical pedantry; it's a mistranslation which my old Latin master, 'Fishy' Rowe, would not have let me get away with when I was in the Third Form, fifty years ago. (He was a Cambridge man and insisted on v being pronounced as w, an affectation I quickly dropped.)<br /><br />I understand that at one time Catholic schools used the Italian pronunciation when teaching John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.com