tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post1265726892966158080..comments2024-03-29T01:24:45.251+00:00Comments on Fr Hunwicke's Mutual Enrichment: CONTRADICTIONSFr John Hunwickehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17766211573399409633noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-1883992035163312622021-01-01T09:33:10.688+00:002021-01-01T09:33:10.688+00:00Anthony, you wouldn't happen to be a Scotsman,...Anthony, you wouldn't happen to be a Scotsman, would you? I mean a true Scotsman, of course. Your last comment reminded me that I read somewhere that Universalism is hopefulness run amok, the opiate of theologians. While your hope springs eternal, I suspect no one will meet your requirements.Gizmo in Paradisehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01394380638543822902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-33915987653692555102020-12-28T22:00:08.755+00:002020-12-28T22:00:08.755+00:00As I say, no faithful Catholics have ever met my p...As I say, no faithful Catholics have ever met my point. Hope springs eternal, as does redemption.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-19628093167588511512020-12-28T18:22:51.211+00:002020-12-28T18:22:51.211+00:00I would add to Anthony's point that Our Lord i...I would add to Anthony's point that Our Lord is rather unfair to all the mortal sinners who don't know the day or the hour of His return. All these other folks got to the moment of death to repent, whether 19 or 99, but not so for those caught unrepentant or even <i>in flagrante delicto</i>.<br /><br />How much more sensible to worship a God of our own making! Too bad the price of gold Thorfinnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12140352020612339113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-51221165560167847112020-12-26T08:11:51.313+00:002020-12-26T08:11:51.313+00:00What is evangelization after all? If it's the ...What is evangelization after all? If it's the protestant message that you are damned and need a saviour - there's nothing particularly "good" about it rather than "news". It's all a bit silly to tell someone who knows nothing about it actually - "Dear sir - there once was your Ancestor Adam and his wife Eve - they ate a fruit from a forbidden tree in a garden Syrian Churchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05823632368613550371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-10804521119448414242020-12-24T19:03:13.353+00:002020-12-24T19:03:13.353+00:00Anthony, it seems your underlying problem with the...Anthony, it seems your underlying problem with the hypothetical you pose is a sense of equity. How can it be that two people who commit the same quantum of sin are so disparately treated for eternity? It’s akin to the discomfort I feel with the parable of the laborers in the field — it just doesn’t seem fair that the chap you worked for only an hour gets paid as much as the one who worked all Gizmo in Paradisehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01394380638543822902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-64770540619206101602020-12-24T18:35:13.564+00:002020-12-24T18:35:13.564+00:00“Is that infinite, majestically disproportionate L...“Is that infinite, majestically disproportionate Love frozen at the point of death?”<br /><br />I think it’s more that we are “frozen”, in that after death we are no longer able to repent, to accept divine love and forgiveness, just as the fallen angels are unable. I’ve puzzled over why this should be so, what exactly happens at the moment of death that causes it, but suspect it is a bit beyond BrionyBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16666210702238658388noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-72739769306461281082020-12-24T01:05:44.551+00:002020-12-24T01:05:44.551+00:00PS Ammons, like Stevens, is a poet of the American...PS Ammons, like Stevens, is a poet of the American Sublime and wonderful. See The City Limits, Corson's Inlet, Gravelly Run and Guide.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-37091759956553070502020-12-23T23:42:01.048+00:002020-12-23T23:42:01.048+00:00No, Michael, Universalism does not preclude Origin...No, Michael, Universalism does not preclude Original Sin; rather the reverse. There's a line by the fine (though, I think, non-Christian) poet, A. R. Ammons: "Origin is your original sin". I think that comes close to the truth that our creation necessitated our falling short - the emphasis is on "our creation" as a type of being but that is obscure/mysterious, I accept.<Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-83109720933310429502020-12-23T14:04:40.971+00:002020-12-23T14:04:40.971+00:00Anthony, if all are saved, it implies God is a mon...Anthony, if all are saved, it implies God is a monster, putting us through all the vicissitudes of life, all for nothing when He could simply have put everyone into Heaven to begin with, whether they liked it or not. As for your 20-year-old mortal sinner, you haven't died yet and so know absolutely nothing of what happens in someone's final moments. That 20-year-old would have been given Michael Leahyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15044897013849386271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-89456697761529606382020-12-23T08:19:42.801+00:002020-12-23T08:19:42.801+00:00Indeed, E sapelion. Translating pro multis as '...Indeed, E sapelion. Translating pro multis as 'for the many' would defuse much unnecessary controversy; the definite article in that translation signals that we are not talking about 'many' in an exclusive sense.<br /><br />To add to Scribe's comment, Aquinas would say that universal salvation is part of God's antecedent will, which he allows the actions of free creatures PMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06144651697262763099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-52408787829302988012020-12-22T23:38:43.005+00:002020-12-22T23:38:43.005+00:00As many scholars have pointed out, "to tend&q...As many scholars have pointed out, "to tend" and "to keep/guard" are exactly what the priests were supposed to do in the Temple.Bansheehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12594214770417497135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-4977425839012158832020-12-22T12:27:49.775+00:002020-12-22T12:27:49.775+00:00Universalism is attractive in the sense that it se...Universalism is attractive in the sense that it seems nicer.<br /><br />But it represents God telling even the most rejectionist, "I will not *allow* you to get away from Me. You shall be happy with Me eternally because I command it." Salvation is not an offer, other than an offer we cannot refuse.<br /><br />If we say that they could only reject God in ignorance, Lucifer saw and knew Ed the Romanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13646391834821547517noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-73778446897197132912020-12-21T23:38:44.654+00:002020-12-21T23:38:44.654+00:00I agree with Hickory Bow, and I find support from ...I agree with Hickory Bow, and I find support from Lewis & Short :-<br />—multi , ōrum, m., the many, the common mass, the multitude: probis probatus potius, quam multis forem, Att. ap. Non. 519, 9: “video ego te, mulier, more multarum utier,” id. ib.—Esp.: unus e (or de) multis, one of the multitude, a man of no distinction: “tenuis L. Virginius unusque e multis,” Cic. Fin. 2, 20, 62: “unus E sapelionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09886268559214926797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-19562106013633742682020-12-21T20:32:17.731+00:002020-12-21T20:32:17.731+00:00Suppose that a mortal sinner, aged 20, dies and is...Suppose that a mortal sinner, aged 20, dies and is duly damned. Suppose then that a mortal sinner (the sin having been committed at the age of 19) lives to the age of 99, confesses on his deathbed and is duly saved. How does that work soteriologically and, as it were, equitably? Does it entail a species of predestination with which most of us would be uncomfortable?<br /><br />I think the Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-42040607915795415732020-12-21T18:38:57.108+00:002020-12-21T18:38:57.108+00:00Dear Fr. Hunwicke, You are not the only one who se...Dear Fr. Hunwicke, You are not the only one who sees the inherent contradiction of believing the beautiful but fallen-affected natural world rules supreme, all the while it wages God-limited war against our obviously fallen but beautiful human nature. <br />It seems all of a piece if one reads Bible history & the front pages.<br /><br />As for pro multis: Can we not be grateful that it is forLady Jane Perduehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02816304333109576404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-44909856512865106362020-12-21T17:55:40.200+00:002020-12-21T17:55:40.200+00:00The secular contradictions are not contradictions ...The secular contradictions are not contradictions at all, unless you cling to outmoded Western superficialities. They are the unfolding of a Deeper Logic. <br /><br />Here's the rule: anything which devalues and damages traditional Western values or institutions, all of which have been created by Evil White Males, is to be protected, promoted and eventually prescribed. <br /><br />That is whyOreamnosAmericanushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15602268350813211243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-42306441769481932742020-12-21T15:46:45.485+00:002020-12-21T15:46:45.485+00:00I wish somebody would explain to me how wanting th...I wish somebody would explain to me how wanting the Jews to join me in the Catholic Church, and to be happy forever in Heaven, is anti-Semitic.Anita Moorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11305092097247290243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-66401934788245673402020-12-21T13:44:26.736+00:002020-12-21T13:44:26.736+00:00Dear Father, I was always disturbed by the change ...Dear Father, I was always disturbed by the change from 'many' to 'all', and was more than relieved when the last translation restored 'for many.' Matthew 26 v. 28 gives us 'shed for many' [pro multis], as does Mark 14. v. 24. (Luke just says 'For you.' John, of course, gives no record of the first Mass). I always understood this to mean that Christ knew Scribehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04264379572686048595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-63457753765625333132020-12-21T12:45:28.333+00:002020-12-21T12:45:28.333+00:00By my lights, translating "pro multis" a...By my lights, translating "pro multis" as "for multitudes" solves the problem. Hickory Bowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15268946217889661139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-3380572851246639562020-12-21T12:29:57.825+00:002020-12-21T12:29:57.825+00:00Is Chesterton your ghost writer, Father? Your firs...Is Chesterton your ghost writer, Father? Your first few sentences could have come straight from his mouth.P. O'Brienhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03184466434314298715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-42288909232402851412020-12-21T11:24:04.070+00:002020-12-21T11:24:04.070+00:00On your first quandary, Father, Gen 2:15 may provi...On your first quandary, Father, Gen 2:15 may provide some help, at the level of principle of not detailed prescription: the Lord appointed man to 'tend the garden and keep it'. What counts as tending and keeping and what counts as wrecking are, it seems to me, matters of prudential judgement taking due regard for science, but the text gives us a way of thinking about it. 'Stewardship&PMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06144651697262763099noreply@blogger.com