tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post6077370845456153732..comments2024-03-18T20:38:40.751+00:00Comments on Fr Hunwicke's Mutual Enrichment: The Roman Rite of 1965Fr John Hunwickehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17766211573399409633noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-6226357476707402762023-08-22T22:17:34.406+01:002023-08-22T22:17:34.406+01:00I've been reading about the liturgy at Fontgom...I've been reading about the liturgy at Fontgombault. They use the 1970 sanctoral. I'm curious about their lectionary? I assume they use the 1962 lectionary? Martialhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08851079497492174074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-29102828978161238672021-04-07T17:09:49.268+01:002021-04-07T17:09:49.268+01:00I know this is quite an old article, but do you ha...I know this is quite an old article, but do you have any further reading on where it mentions Mgr. Lefebvre celebrating the Mass of 1965? This is addressed to both Father and commenters generally. Ray D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09780142432729217859noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-39754021726876809662019-04-15T09:39:11.375+01:002019-04-15T09:39:11.375+01:00To be fair, there's very little of the priest&...To be fair, there's very little of the priest's part nor the deacon's said audibly in the byzantine rite to get confused. In the roman rite, there's a lot of disagreement about what is clerical and what is for the laity. Things like the introit and the gradual for instanceBrianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03228719076116367522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-78454792185523110692018-12-23T04:08:31.630+00:002018-12-23T04:08:31.630+00:00Excellent an article.
Excellent an article.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01126678016270476892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-11422926119684319052016-08-30T08:41:10.846+01:002016-08-30T08:41:10.846+01:00The introduction of the "Dialogue Mass" ...The introduction of the "Dialogue Mass" broke one's concentration on the text of the prayers within the Missal. Those prayers, although by the Celebrant, required one to reflect upon our individual inadequacy and frailty in the face of that which was to take place. The recitations by the congregation were also disjointed and lacking sycronisation, servers' responses could also Sixupmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12486627001579821658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-59576971994297339822016-08-29T15:45:31.101+01:002016-08-29T15:45:31.101+01:00Hello Mark,
Even now, when I attend the Tradition...Hello Mark,<br /><br /><i>Even now, when I attend the Traditional Mass in the 1962 form, I can hear around me that there are people who come from the same experience, who want to say the responses, sing the Gloria, Credo, etc.</i><br /><br />As you probably know, however, this is one of those traditionalist "third rails" in some TLM communities - esp. in the Anglo-American world, where Athelstanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07346012062816580296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-11986832461317373172016-08-28T11:27:09.327+01:002016-08-28T11:27:09.327+01:00No-one ever approached the rail until after the Ec...No-one ever approached the rail until after the Ecce Agnus Dei. From 1967, when the Ecce preceded the priest's Communion (as in the Novus Ordo) a bell was rung to signal the people to approach the rail. That is probably why some people nowadays interpret the three bells at the priest's Domine non sum dignus (wrongly) as a signal to come forward.<br /><br />In my parish 1965 coincided withJohn Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-67675136338879690202016-08-27T21:09:04.350+01:002016-08-27T21:09:04.350+01:00In one parish near me, they approach the rail duri...In one parish near me, they approach the rail during the priest’s Communion. I know of a parish in London which sings the verse at the ablutions, but most follow the 1957 rubrics to sing it as Communion begins. At least some ICRSS apostolates reserve the “Domine, non sum dignus” to the celebrant alone, even though most places do as you describe; technically, the ICRSS is correct, but… Matthew Rothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00958673318312786618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-7318299580351238862016-08-27T21:06:30.764+01:002016-08-27T21:06:30.764+01:00Good question. I’ll ask a friend. But, except for ...Good question. I’ll ask a friend. But, except for Lent prior to St. Pius X, it’s stil St. John on 90% of days. Christmas and (usually green) Sundays which coincide with a feast are about it after 1910 for proper Last Gospels. Matthew Rothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00958673318312786618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-62393430062468380112016-08-27T17:53:57.527+01:002016-08-27T17:53:57.527+01:00Doesn't the "silent Last Gospel" onl...Doesn't the "silent Last Gospel" only date from the 1958-62 reforms? Before that it would not always have been S. John, but the proper Last Gospel of a commemorated day?Paul Goingshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06479425203740052841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-91453046944369790182016-08-26T22:18:28.595+01:002016-08-26T22:18:28.595+01:00@ Adrian
Thank you very much for sharing your memo...@ Adrian<br />Thank you very much for sharing your memories, Adrian. Starting the final (usually certainly Marian) hymn directly after the blessing very much makes sense, as at this point mass is finished - the Last Gospel historically is an addition and belongs more to the priest then to the people, like the introductory prayers in the beginning which are said parallel to the sung introit and Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-27006984958197155342016-08-26T17:33:59.899+01:002016-08-26T17:33:59.899+01:00It isn’t entirely pre–1955, not since there was so...It isn’t entirely pre–1955, not since there was some interference ca. 2003. But, they did the old Candlemas blessing at the seminary this year, they say the Credo on feasts of doctors, they are obliged to say the prayer pro Papa (I know these prayers rotated, but a 1962 Ordo doesn’t have this listed at all), they always double the readings at High Mass, and a few apostolates have folded chasublesMatthew Rothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00958673318312786618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-9863368339615602802016-08-26T17:28:38.512+01:002016-08-26T17:28:38.512+01:00Technically at High Mass, the Last Gospel is secre...Technically at High Mass, the Last Gospel is secreto. In modern usage, the prayers for the monarch usually come (possibly before) after the Marian anthem, if that isn’t sung during the Last Gospel. Matthew Rothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00958673318312786618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-32596964504632885322016-08-26T12:35:08.980+01:002016-08-26T12:35:08.980+01:00Regarding Ansgarus's question about the Last G...Regarding Ansgarus's question about the Last Gospel, I am pretty sure I can remember either the choir singing a motet (usually Marian) as soon as the blessing was given, or a final hymn starting. Only the clergy and servers took any notice of what was happening at the altar. What I cannot remember is where the Domine salvum fac fitted into all this. Adrianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15533152787340723191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-33481813193442949972016-08-26T01:06:28.962+01:002016-08-26T01:06:28.962+01:00"In my view, the usages in place before the P..."In my view, the usages in place before the Pontificate of Pius XII began would be distinctly preferable to the maimed usages of 1962."<br /><br />There are more than a few of us out here who would agree with that, Father. Athelstanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07346012062816580296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-19486769401112382162016-08-26T00:17:29.130+01:002016-08-26T00:17:29.130+01:00Were I in your parish, I would push for him to be ...Were I in your parish, I would push for him to be clerical MC, which means singing the lesson and doing most of the tasks a deacon can do, and this only if no one can be found to be subdeacon, presuming the priest isn’t comfortable with an older altar boy. Matthew Rothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00958673318312786618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-37558810441302486762016-08-25T23:51:16.141+01:002016-08-25T23:51:16.141+01:00To which ICKSP apostolate do refer re: Use of pre ...To which ICKSP apostolate do refer re: Use of pre '55 missal?Mold Junctionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04720139361285979498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-8960436860335217012016-08-25T23:38:32.973+01:002016-08-25T23:38:32.973+01:00Even though still very similar to 1962, 1965 is sh...Even though still very similar to 1962, 1965 is showing a fundamentally different concept of the priestly Action during mass. Whereas in the versions before 1965 the priest is saying the entire mass by himself (except the parts sung by the subdeacon and deacon in case of a high mass), and repeating all parts which occasionally are sung by the only attending - but not acting - people or the scholaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-75800006837450377272016-08-25T22:38:29.598+01:002016-08-25T22:38:29.598+01:00Tony V:
Two clergy ran The Holy Name, Manchester ...Tony V:<br /><br />Two clergy ran The Holy Name, Manchester as a proto-oratory, they Celebrated and early morning Mass and an even Mass - attendance at both being sound, including those on way to work. A further aspect was that they also Celebrated a TLM Sunday afternoon - also well attended including those from the student body. The latter were exposed to the full scope of Catholicism. Alas Sixupmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12486627001579821658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-5058378509852519112016-08-25T19:17:11.328+01:002016-08-25T19:17:11.328+01:00The 1962 Missal is not 'un-muckedaboutwith'...The 1962 Missal is not 'un-muckedaboutwith'............ Bugnini had exercised his malign influence for several years before then. To find a genuinely traditional Missal one has to look for one published prior to 1955.sedelondonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13282326776240751174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-86094240025301111162016-08-25T18:35:34.558+01:002016-08-25T18:35:34.558+01:00The issue I have with concelebration, which we fre...The issue I have with concelebration, which we frequently see in our parish's weekend and daily Masses, is this: if there are enough priests to concelebrate, then they'd do better to lay on an extra Mass so more laity can attend. <br />When did it become a rule in England that daily mass must be at 10 am, to prevent students and working people from attending? And why can't we Tony Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10862727279147129707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-34486259325190235212016-08-25T18:35:09.834+01:002016-08-25T18:35:09.834+01:00An easy way to check a 1965 Missal is to install t...An easy way to check a 1965 Missal is to install the FSSP iMass app. 1965 can be selected from a drop down menu underneath the Mass text (they call it 1960-1967 but it seems to be the 1965 Rite with the Communion of the Faithful and no Last Gospel and Leonine prayers).<br /><br />I think there was some provision that a concelebrating priest would get a full stipend despite only saying a few wordsPrayerfulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01561992635589480308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-37229776945380523522016-08-25T17:38:41.559+01:002016-08-25T17:38:41.559+01:00Interestingly, Pius XII had already permitted in 1...Interestingly, Pius XII had already permitted in 1957 the revised Holy Week rites to be somewhat solemnly celebrated with only a priest and a deacon (i.e. without a subdeacon): "Ubi actiones liturgicae hebdomadae sanctae ritu simplici peraguntur, si praesto sit alter sacerdos vel saltem diaconus, nil impedit quominus hic, diaconali more indutus, cantet Evangelium, quando occurrit, aut A. T. Wallacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02816243030572765014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-16282316217518536692016-08-25T17:31:45.157+01:002016-08-25T17:31:45.157+01:00I sing at a Missa Cantata (once a month, shortly t...I sing at a Missa Cantata (once a month, shortly to be twice a month) where there is a permanent deacon. He is in the sanctuary in choir dress and biretta and sings the epistle facing the altar but not at it. The celebrant sings the gospel from the altar missal in the usual way. The deacon does not assist the priest at the altar and only assumes the diaconal stole when he receives Communion.<br /John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-70160854956676966292016-08-25T17:12:51.859+01:002016-08-25T17:12:51.859+01:00I see no reason why a qualified layman cannot serv...I see no reason why a qualified layman cannot serve as a straw subdeacon. Giving the faithful a High Mass if you can find a deacon is a very good reason. Rome has never forbidden it in the PCED era. Yes, it hss implied it is banned, since it says one instituted to acolyte (or at least candidacy or a seminarian at the very least) may serve, but I think they are well aware that places have used Matthew Rothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00958673318312786618noreply@blogger.com