tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post5988559153988482395..comments2024-03-28T12:26:03.686+00:00Comments on Fr Hunwicke's Mutual Enrichment: Was Gregory Organic?Fr John Hunwickehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17766211573399409633noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-71511403374893483212009-09-05T16:03:04.955+01:002009-09-05T16:03:04.955+01:00Prof. Tighe,
Thank you very much for taking the t...Prof. Tighe,<br /><br />Thank you very much for taking the time to present that passage.<br /><br />As I read the passage, I took the "ad ipsam <i>solummodo</i> orationem" as a reference to the preceding "Orationem vero dominicam", so whether the "oblationis" attended that phrase, or the word "hostiam", did not make as much of a difference to me. However, IMichael McDonoughhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17384055883425252489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-12728990850544744932009-09-04T23:53:41.821+01:002009-09-04T23:53:41.821+01:00It seems a bit mean-spirited to criticise Bl John ...It seems a bit mean-spirited to criticise Bl John XXIII for adding the very decent and pious phrase "et beati Joseph ejusdem Virginis Sponsi" to the Communicantes.<br /><br />Paul VI's changes were, I agree, infelicitous: making the Per Christum's and most of both lists of saints optional were profoundly untraditional prunings; moving Mysterium fidei and introducing those silly Joshuahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17387698013828199070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-31789036702918660832009-09-04T23:50:47.985+01:002009-09-04T23:50:47.985+01:00(cont'd)
In the first sentence of this passag...(cont'd)<br /><br />In the first sentence of this passage scholars from Amalarius onwards have taken the words oblationis hostiam together, as meaning “the victim of the oblation”, and have therefore interpreted St. Gregory as meaning that it was the custom of the Apostles to consecrate the Eucharist to the accompaniment of (ad) the Lord’s Prayer (ipsam orationem) and of nothing else.<br /><William Tighehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16634494183165592707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-9109368199502848962009-09-04T23:49:38.154+01:002009-09-04T23:49:38.154+01:00Concerning "Orationem vero Dominicam idcirco ...Concerning "Orationem vero Dominicam idcirco mox post precem dicimus, quia mos apostolorum fuit ut ad ipsam solummodo orationem oblationis hostiam consecrarent. Et valde mihi inconveniens visum est ut precem quam scholasticus composuerat super oblationem diceremus, et ipsam traditionem quam Redemptor noster composuit super eius corpus et sanguinem non diceremus. Set et Dominica oratio apud William Tighehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16634494183165592707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-58694036589197129162009-09-04T19:13:52.257+01:002009-09-04T19:13:52.257+01:00THE ROMAN CANON IS SUPERB AND NEEDS NO IMPROVEMENT...THE ROMAN CANON IS SUPERB AND NEEDS NO IMPROVEMENT AND NO CONDESCENDING PATRONISING.<br /><br />How I wish that someone had told that to Bl. John XXIII and Paul VI!Paul Goingshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06479425203740052841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-91956288034297773432009-09-04T17:22:09.407+01:002009-09-04T17:22:09.407+01:00Epiklesis ... the Roman Canon does not have an epi...Epiklesis ... the Roman Canon does not have an epiklesis, never had one because its antiquity is such that it antecedes the invention of the epiklesis, and one of the glories of the Canon Romanus is its lack of epiklesis. I wish people would stop letting themselves be bullied by ignorant philo-Byzantines into trying to find a 'Roman Epiklesis', or speculating on when the Epiklesis "Fr John Hunwickehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17766211573399409633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-3542533209929756152009-09-04T16:53:02.167+01:002009-09-04T16:53:02.167+01:00I heard some time ago that one of the Vastican pre...I heard some time ago that one of the Vastican presses published a "symposium" of papers on Addai & Mari, and the question of its lack of an institution narrative. I have never beeen able to track down the biblographical particulars of the book, but I was told at the time that some of the contributions argue very strongly indeed against the position of the PCPCU (I thought it was William Tighehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16634494183165592707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-47012239931712036782009-09-04T16:22:03.934+01:002009-09-04T16:22:03.934+01:00"...if the very Institution Narrative can be ..."...if the very Institution Narrative can be contained "implicitly" in the Canon of Adai and Mani, as was declared by the Pope not long ago..."<br /><br />Not by any Pope, but simply by the Pontifical Council for Christian Unity.APhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11395966255346711744noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-60740869933339826542009-09-04T15:37:46.164+01:002009-09-04T15:37:46.164+01:00I was thinking about the comments made about the E...I was thinking about the comments made about the Epiklesis and the Roman liturgy. I've heard various ideas about where the Epiklesis may be found in the Roman Rite. In spite of all the arguments I've heard there is only one prayer in the original Roman Rite that strikes me as qualifying as an Epiklesis at all, and that is the Veni, Sanctificator which is prayed at the Offertory.<br /><br Michael McDonoughhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17384055883425252489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-61737067678723708612009-09-04T15:30:07.161+01:002009-09-04T15:30:07.161+01:00I'm not sure whether this is to make too much ...I'm not sure whether this is to make too much of a mere letter of Gregory the Great (though I know some Orthodox and Eastern Catholics who put great probatory store in the slightest details they find in his letters), but I found interesting a few bits that Fr. H. did not have in his original post.<br /><br />Immediately after the main quote under consideration, Gregory concludes that Michael McDonoughhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17384055883425252489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-73639420013367888702009-09-04T01:57:52.689+01:002009-09-04T01:57:52.689+01:00"Perhaps what went wrong in the 1960s and 197..."Perhaps what went wrong in the 1960s and 1970s was that a clericalist coup, effected by 'experts' who knew that they knew best, overrode this 'law'."<br /><br />May I suggest that a comparison of the text of the 1962 missal and it's predecessors with the 'bare ruined' texts of the 1969 missal gives the lie to the any notion that the "experts' knew Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07352598115559204014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-7953748089177961612009-09-03T23:02:50.976+01:002009-09-03T23:02:50.976+01:00Is organic development that which is made only by ...Is organic development that which is made only by a process of accretion excluding deliberately planned change? Is it the sum of many small changes rather than of big ones? I must admit to being puzzled as to what is organic and what is not.Independenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08199774656279385253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-14016180202329805282009-09-03T22:38:32.929+01:002009-09-03T22:38:32.929+01:00What's organic?
A. Singing alleluia out of P...What's organic?<br /><br />A. Singing alleluia out of Paschaltide; adding a few Kyries for decoration; denuding some subdeacons of tunicles (sounds rather Anglo-Catholic ;-) ); and moving the Pater noster back a pace or two - probably.<br /><br />B. Ripping up the old and introducing an entirely new Lectionary, and a bowdlerized one; redoing the Church calendar, moving feasts about from oneJoshuahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17387698013828199070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-47214801959380833152009-09-03T20:22:28.262+01:002009-09-03T20:22:28.262+01:00"The gradual reduction of the Epiclesis to a ..."The gradual reduction of the Epiclesis to a sentence or two, when it is the heart of the consecration, may have been one of the worst."<br /><br />In the West? This strikes me as mystification of the most egregious sort, as the "consecratoryepiclesis" is clearly an Eastern "export" to the West, and one that never flourished there. Apart from its appearance in William Tighehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16634494183165592707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-78529906995593472972009-09-03T17:12:39.268+01:002009-09-03T17:12:39.268+01:00Since the Middle Ages however there has been the i...Since the Middle Ages however there has been the invention of printing and the consequent desire on the part of authorities to centralise, homogenise, and geneally tidy up what was a considerable variety of rites and uses. Since the BCP of 1549 and the Missal of Pius V this continued apace until the Second Council of the Vatican unwittingly reversed the process. Now that everyone is his own Independenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08199774656279385253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-64973302972350893372009-09-03T16:55:52.493+01:002009-09-03T16:55:52.493+01:00In my understanding or the term “organic”, it is a...In my understanding or the term “organic”, it is a process of natural growth and development from the root. Nowhere in that definition is there a specific mention of “new and innovative”, although that may often occur. It is a process of gradual and natural change and can just as well involve the return to a practice whose apparent value was not evident until it was lost. The key words are JamesIIIhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11425024208115911443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-68159646668195486622009-09-03T15:34:23.016+01:002009-09-03T15:34:23.016+01:00It is from Pope Gregory's letter to Archbishop...It is from Pope Gregory's letter to Archbishop John of Syracuse, written in October 598.William Tighehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16634494183165592707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-74604382048278341452009-09-03T15:10:46.223+01:002009-09-03T15:10:46.223+01:00What work was GG Willis translating?
What you su...What work was GG Willis translating? <br /><br />What you suggest, the "clericalist coup", does sound just, with respect to the Novus Ordo itself. From memory, as teenaged pew fodder myself, I do not recall that we were much upset with the Roman Missal (English or Latin) of 1965, which I now view as the approximate "norm" toward which we RCs ought to tend. It incorporated (Michael McDonoughhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17384055883425252489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-52776080383101506432009-09-03T10:30:48.536+01:002009-09-03T10:30:48.536+01:00Is the Ambrosian position of the Lord's Prayer...Is the Ambrosian position of the Lord's Prayer (after the Fraction, itself after the Canon) the original Roman position?Joshuahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17387698013828199070noreply@blogger.com