tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post587596084496648234..comments2024-03-29T01:24:45.251+00:00Comments on Fr Hunwicke's Mutual Enrichment: MemoriesFr John Hunwickehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17766211573399409633noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-70987755189883056012015-01-29T18:12:11.324+00:002015-01-29T18:12:11.324+00:00Well, Stephen, I think you have an odd view about ...Well, Stephen, I think you have an odd view about "led and orchestrated" if it includes resisting something for four centuries and then accepting it with some reluctance.<br /><br />I don't much like being told what I can't say. I do say that Rome forbids the addition of Filioque to the Creed in the Byzantine Rite Churches in Communion with her, and in the document Dominus IesusFr John Hunwickehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17766211573399409633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-77868483283599951342015-01-27T13:31:53.833+00:002015-01-27T13:31:53.833+00:00I’m always a bit leery when people go on about Sol...I’m always a bit leery when people go on about Solemn High Masses, accenting the provenance of the music (<i>“Missa in X by Y…”</i>), the expertise of the choir, organist, cantors, etc.<br /><br />One is tempted to ask: “What did you come out to see…?”<br /><br />Undoubtedly there are good reasons for celebrating Mass with all solemnity and especially on Major Feasts and Solemn Occasions. But theGORhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14313101159848740722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-60191831134086431182015-01-27T11:46:34.082+00:002015-01-27T11:46:34.082+00:00I agree with Nicolas Bellord - the introduction of...I agree with Nicolas Bellord - the introduction of the liturgical revolution was a "trahison des clercs" of some magnitude.vetusta ecclesiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09454059029260192711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-14318708336317998672015-01-27T09:24:18.179+00:002015-01-27T09:24:18.179+00:00B Flat: Maybe I have been too harsh but it was ce...B Flat: Maybe I have been too harsh but it was certainly not the laity. Maybe the clergy were dupes of Satan but then to be duped by the Devil reveals a certain lack? Of course there have been exceptions and many clergy will express their doubts about what has happened privately. But publicly very few will stand up and be counted. Obedience is a good thing but at times it becomes blind Nicolas Bellordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08063019108964247676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-71973322296566857052015-01-27T09:21:12.623+00:002015-01-27T09:21:12.623+00:00"Led and orchestrated by the Papacy"!!!!..."Led and orchestrated by the Papacy"!!!!!<br /><br />I enabled this comment for a utilitarian purpose: we Latins are very often sadly ignorant of Oriental realities. But the same can be true the other way round. Apparently there are Eastern Christians (or perhaps Stephen is a sympathiser rather than an Orthodox?) who have been taught, or led to believe, or allowed to assume, that the Fr John Hunwickehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17766211573399409633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-72702742430829639982015-01-27T03:34:14.694+00:002015-01-27T03:34:14.694+00:00The inconceivable happened. Why and how did it ha...The inconceivable happened. Why and how did it happen? Here's a theory: Because it was not the first time such an innovation occurred. People don't like to consider the entire filioque issue, but how much different is that innovation, led and orchestrated by the Papacy then, than what you are lamenting now, also led and orchestrated by the Papacy?<br /><br />And westerners so often Stephenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12833345391579579562noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-55355951586886920222015-01-26T23:02:41.478+00:002015-01-26T23:02:41.478+00:00@ Nicholas Bellord.
To blame the priests may be a ...@ Nicholas Bellord.<br />To blame the priests may be a too sweeping and rather harsh. Does anyone remember clearly what happened at Downham Market during the times of Liturgical change? I think a Parish priest could resist because he was at that time immovable except when convicted for crime. Now there is no security of tenure in any post in the church beyond that given by secular legislation.<B flathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17611595580578224726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-4852823876484519792015-01-26T13:17:54.003+00:002015-01-26T13:17:54.003+00:00Matthew: And how many Missa Cantata's and Hig...Matthew: And how many Missa Cantata's and High Masses do you now enjoy in SW England?<br /><br />Most Catholics did understand what was happening because they had missals with the Latin on one side and the English on the other. Even if they had not learnt Latin formally at school - and in my day Latin was a requirement for entry to a University so most schools taught it - they probably Nicolas Bellordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08063019108964247676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-79939596836120299972015-01-26T11:21:57.204+00:002015-01-26T11:21:57.204+00:00Just re-read your 14 Jan post -- well said. Clact...Just re-read your 14 Jan post -- well said. Clacton-on-sea is of course a long way from Cullompton; it's not impossible that the papist priest at the former realised that if he didn't keep his liturgical socks well pulled up the local Anglicans could have attracted aesthetically-inclined waverers away from his flock, a danger quite remote at the latter (though the Establishment there Matthewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06908070025869221948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-68644892720141239122015-01-26T10:39:38.775+00:002015-01-26T10:39:38.775+00:00Yes, Matthew: I said basically this (although I tr...Yes, Matthew: I said basically this (although I tried to be a bit more polite about it) myself on January 14 ... have look.<br /><br />I am not sure about your claim that there were few Sung Masses. In the RC church in Clacton-on-Sea in Essex , which I knew very well in the 1950s, the main Sunday Mass was Sung, and began with the Asperges and ended with the Prayers for the Monarch.Fr John Hunwickehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17766211573399409633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-85681759961938854212015-01-26T09:54:03.879+00:002015-01-26T09:54:03.879+00:00The REALITY of Sunday Mass in many (most?) RC pari...The REALITY of Sunday Mass in many (most?) RC parish churches in this country on the eve of V2 was of course quite different from that impressive event in Ushaw chapel. Where I was brought up in rural SW England you would have had to travel 40+ miles to the nearest Benedictine monastery or 60+ to the cathedral to witness High Mass on an ordinary Sunday, and in our small-town church a simple Matthewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06908070025869221948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-77428285650645776462015-01-26T00:06:23.475+00:002015-01-26T00:06:23.475+00:00The inconceivable happened.
Similarly, homosexua...<i>The inconceivable happened. </i><br /><br />Similarly, homosexuals are now legally "married" in the USA.<br /><br />Inconceivable.Dad29https://www.blogger.com/profile/08554276286736923821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-52401469017155724392015-01-25T23:09:11.299+00:002015-01-25T23:09:11.299+00:00Dear 'Catherine of Sienna', your comment i...Dear 'Catherine of Sienna', your comment is so sad, please do not give up. The devil surely tempts us all in different ways, and despair is surely one of the most insidious.<br />The Saints were all tempted in this way,the life of St Teresa of Avila is recommended to inspire, as are many others. Good books/biographies on the lives of the Saints can be a great help. Many Catholics endure umblepiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13455889107917179909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-88228697975963950762015-01-25T22:07:50.196+00:002015-01-25T22:07:50.196+00:00SCEcclesia, may I venture a beginning of an answer...SCEcclesia, may I venture a beginning of an answer, or perhaps a clarification of the question, to the apparent contradiction. One who speaks with authority does so because he knows, or is presumed to know, the truth. The bishops, the pope even, have no authority of their own, they possess only the authority of Christ. He "speaks with authority" because he is "the Way, the TruthFr. Michael LaRuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04824777871450270095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-78965045205723542502015-01-25T21:56:19.750+00:002015-01-25T21:56:19.750+00:00One can't dismiss the influence of Freud &...One can't dismiss the influence of Freud & Co. either. All those repressed young males ...<br /><br />Would be interested on your take on Cardinal Mariaga's comments on the ambitions of this papacy, reported on Rorate Caeli blog. Tradition effectively abolished, it would seem, if I understand him correctly.<br /><br />Catherine of Siena: sympathies, but please do stick in there! Deliahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383433319373651830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-2646925848560391382015-01-25T19:47:08.565+00:002015-01-25T19:47:08.565+00:00Two observations:
1) I agree with Charlesdawson a...Two observations:<br /><br />1) I agree with Charlesdawson above that we cannot discount the enormous external factors that came to bear upon the Church. Rather than asking "how did it all collapse so quickly", perhaps we should ask "How did it survive at all?". We have no knowledge of whether or not, untouched by the post Vatican II reforms, the liturgical tradition would Schutzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13786221181804480363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-77216232182190698822015-01-25T19:06:25.529+00:002015-01-25T19:06:25.529+00:00Coming to the RCC from a Dutch Reformed African Ch...Coming to the RCC from a Dutch Reformed African Church the current state of liturgical music in the NO was the greatest shock and sadness to my old intrinsically catholic soul. It is excruciatingly awful. From which secular dust bins of Protestant sects were these liturgical "songs" resurrected? <br /><br />My first meeting with Catholicism was around Christmas 1961 in Notre Dame, ParisCatherina of Sienahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10949525851871017280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-27168731757223224942015-01-25T18:34:15.249+00:002015-01-25T18:34:15.249+00:00The NEB is a more complicated matter. It was firs...The NEB is a more complicated matter. It was first produced - hence its informal style - as an NT for the bedside, better to understand what had been encountered in Church. So many clergy took to using it (illegally) in public worship that, somewhat panicked, the translators introduced a new, more sonorous tone to the OT. Clearly the NT had to be brought into line with the OT and we eventuallyUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02920258944978279395noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-24483831998451590412015-01-25T15:32:46.462+00:002015-01-25T15:32:46.462+00:00Paul vi told those who were worried or upset to be...Paul vi told those who were worried or upset to be "docile" and, obedient children, we were. Less so now having seen how we were taken advantage of.vetusta ecclesiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09454059029260192711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-73567747294394583472015-01-25T15:30:30.350+00:002015-01-25T15:30:30.350+00:00Paul vi told those who were worried or upset to be...Paul vi told those who were worried or upset to be "docile" and, obedient children, we were. But less so now, having seen how hugely we were taken advantage of.vetusta ecclesiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09454059029260192711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-14609321490318635352015-01-25T11:43:30.383+00:002015-01-25T11:43:30.383+00:00And, I fear, much the same is about to be attempte...And, I fear, much the same is about to be attempted against marriage, not to mention the push to "allow" Communion to those living in sin (which, far from bringing them blessings, will expedite their eating and drinking damnation).Joshuahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17387698013828199070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-30753313199914032762015-01-25T11:22:18.164+00:002015-01-25T11:22:18.164+00:00Remember, Father, this was the 1960s-70s. An awfu...Remember, Father, this was the 1960s-70s. An awful lot of babies were being thrown out with the bathwater in those years, secular as well as religious. We are only now counting the true cost.<br /><br />You could also go back to the New English Bible, which at the beginning of the '60s, IIRC, replaced the exquisite prose of the KJV/AV with flat, mundane (in every sense of the word)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com