tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post5607878591032060175..comments2024-03-28T22:56:16.016+00:00Comments on Fr Hunwicke's Mutual Enrichment: Whose hands?Fr John Hunwickehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17766211573399409633noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-66683340593198663202017-09-25T00:22:26.288+01:002017-09-25T00:22:26.288+01:00Ah, you mean the triple interrogation. I don't...Ah, you mean the triple interrogation. I don't think anyone should regard that as problematic.<br /><br />Neither should single-bishop ordinations don't bother anyone. It is clear that this happened in antiquity on multiple occasions. And the purpose of the triple episcopal requirement was obviously to maintain a practical demonstration of catholicity before the rise of the Nathanielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04008539197675560813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-66743761325674329322017-09-24T10:18:03.479+01:002017-09-24T10:18:03.479+01:00It would seem that the invocation of the Trinity o...It would seem that the invocation of the Trinity over the one to be illuminated was the oldest practice. It is attested of course by the Gospel, and also by the Acts, although indirectly. First the faith was and then the person was baptised, which would imply that there was no necessity for confessing the faith in the moment of baptism.<br />Also, st. Justin Martyr, in the 61st chapter of his 1stMarko Ivančičevićhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04579400863718513875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-33891762943096332032017-09-23T17:29:53.589+01:002017-09-23T17:29:53.589+01:00The so-called Gelasian Sacramentary. See also the ...The so-called Gelasian Sacramentary. See also the book which used to be regarded as the Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus; and, before that, was called The Egyptian Church Order.Fr John Hunwickehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17766211573399409633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-14929887378372033752017-09-23T17:00:54.717+01:002017-09-23T17:00:54.717+01:00What is the historical record of baptism without f...What is the historical record of baptism without formula in the ancient rite? I don't see any reference to it in Ferguson's Baptism in the Early Church. Maybe I missed it?<br /><br />This formula was long established in the East and they regarded any derivation of it as heresy invalidating baptism even in the third century. See, for example, the Conybeare Fragment of St. Dionysius of Nathanielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04008539197675560813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-48426605681978815772017-09-23T09:53:58.587+01:002017-09-23T09:53:58.587+01:00I did my best, but apparently unsuccessfully, to m...I did my best, but apparently unsuccessfully, to make clear that my speculation is that the presbyters may collegially do, with their bishop, something which, on their own, they could do neither licitly nor illicitly. The Old Pontifical, in the Consecration of the Chrism, provides another example of this.<br /><br />In the ancient Roman rites of Baptism, a presbyter asked the candidate a questionFr John Hunwickehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17766211573399409633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-6882767775468950162017-09-22T23:05:11.783+01:002017-09-22T23:05:11.783+01:00Mere sprinkling is invalid. The water must be pour...Mere sprinkling is invalid. The water must be poured.F Marsdenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04348628602646025343noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-80234221240083832052017-09-22T22:56:15.647+01:002017-09-22T22:56:15.647+01:00Don't forget that England was at one point giv...Don't forget that England was at one point given permission for a single bishop to consecrate another bishop.<br /><br />That suggests that the co-consecrating bishops do not perform an essential part of the sacrament, otherwise they could not be dispensed with.<br /><br />(I do not have a source to hand, but think it's in Bede; I was always surprised that it was not mentioned in support RichardThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16761130714944237699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-44607078413118590552017-09-22T15:44:41.771+01:002017-09-22T15:44:41.771+01:00Though baptism does not induct its recipient into ...Though baptism does not induct its recipient into a distinct college within the Church, the ministers who confer it nonetheless welcome the recipient into their ranks of the baptized, and the application of matter and form *cannot* be accomplished collegially in that case. As a condition of validity, the same minister must speak the sacramental form and immerse/pour/sprinkle.Aaron Sandershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06867834864849800340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-19323769270376089742017-09-22T14:34:42.738+01:002017-09-22T14:34:42.738+01:00How would one reconcile this with the universal ab...How would one reconcile this with the universal absence of the laying on of hands by the presbyters in the Eastern rites? One could make the argument that the bishop may delegate any of his prerogatives to any of his presbyters (and thus the presbyters provide the matter), but this is clearly not the case if priests can illicitly but validly effect the Eucharistic change. If priests possess the Nathanielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04008539197675560813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-71751748864071695712017-09-22T12:37:39.233+01:002017-09-22T12:37:39.233+01:00PM, The "Investiture Crisis", was obviou...PM, The "Investiture Crisis", was obviously not simply about episcopal ornaments, especially in an age where many considered ordination consisted in the actual "investing", and Episcopal Consecration in the 'unbinding' of full authority received in priestly ordination. Hence the uncrossing or crossing (and binding with the cincture) of the priest's stole post VII The Boneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10271719805983763595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-73637555274897505792017-09-22T08:08:31.483+01:002017-09-22T08:08:31.483+01:00That fine historian Jane Sayers, in a paper on pap...That fine historian Jane Sayers, in a paper on papal privileges for St Albans, recounts how a fifteenth-century abbot reasoned that, as he has the right to wear a mitre, wear a ring, carry a staff and confer minor orders,thought he might as well ask the pope for the right to confer major orders as well. The pope refused, as one would expect.<br /><br />This incident does, however, bear on a PMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06144651697262763099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-84634432831439671452017-09-21T15:00:44.110+01:002017-09-21T15:00:44.110+01:00Well, the ordainer himself must be a bishop (in on...Well, the ordainer himself <i>must</i> be a bishop (in one sense, that is <i>what bishops are for</i>), and therefore he is <i>one of</i> the bishops (and a fortiori one of the presbyters, as well... ) present.Belfry Bathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00514867101036143597noreply@blogger.com