tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post4132446875044741795..comments2024-03-28T20:30:48.788+00:00Comments on Fr Hunwicke's Mutual Enrichment: "Invalidists"Fr John Hunwickehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17766211573399409633noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-24197556022382388092019-02-11T22:30:17.153+00:002019-02-11T22:30:17.153+00:00Dear Tom, the rite of Paul VI implores both Holy S...Dear Tom, the rite of Paul VI implores both Holy Spirit and priesthood (bishop), as the Coptic rite, just the Coptic translation has some sentences in a different order:<br /><br />Et nunc effunde super hunc electum eam virtutem, quae a te est, SPIRITUM PRINCIPALE, quem dedisti dilecto Filio tuo Jesu Christo, quem tradidisti dilecto Filio tuo, Domino nostro Jesu Christo quem ipse donavit sanctis Sybokhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03841768414163141106noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-61627995694359450752019-02-11T11:55:16.403+00:002019-02-11T11:55:16.403+00:00Sybok, here is the Coptic form that ordains a bis...Sybok, here is the Coptic form that ordains a bishop. It is taken from the link you provided:<br /><br />+ The Patriarch places his hand on the chosen candidate and prays:<br /><br />O existing Master and Lord God the Pantocrator �. Pour now the power of Your Holy Spirit Whom You granted to Your Holy Apostles in Your Name. Grant this same grace to Your servant (�..) whom You choose as a bishop Tom A.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13680594973982446985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-57431460549843029552019-02-10T15:16:33.421+00:002019-02-10T15:16:33.421+00:00I did not fully agree with the original three part...I did not fully agree with the original three part series of Father Hunwicke, but I think he offered some valuable insight. Novus Ordo Watch and Father Cekada responded to the series. They also offer very valuable insight, but unfortunately, their entire demeanour is toxic, which to some part discredits them. I would hope for a constructive dialogue rather than mutual condemnations.<br /><br />Randolph Cranehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16696593312319487318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-16096767536194026742019-02-08T01:42:17.693+00:002019-02-08T01:42:17.693+00:00Dear Father, i know you said you are finished with...Dear Father, i know you said you are finished with this, but I think respectful conversation can be constructive especially for future people researching this topic. while i am quite critical of Archbishop Bugini's "reforms", this bishop ordination thing bothered me for some time until i found peace of mind after researching it, i hope others can come at ease with the "reformedSybokhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03841768414163141106noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-20650117599201034882019-02-07T14:53:13.196+00:002019-02-07T14:53:13.196+00:00I am fortunate to have a Melkite Rite not too far ...I am fortunate to have a Melkite Rite not too far away. I do not believe their ordination rites were tampered with after the council. Tom A.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13680594973982446985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-88180147552622688462019-02-07T14:49:14.989+00:002019-02-07T14:49:14.989+00:00It seems there are two issues that need clarificat...It seems there are two issues that need clarification. First, is it from an eastern ordination or installation. I have heard claims that counter each other. Second, while the Coptic form you quote above seems similar, the NO form seems to have shifted an essential element from the essential form to a later prayer. The Coptic rite has the essential elements as defined by Pius XII in the Tom A.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13680594973982446985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-2770324762848299802019-02-06T21:37:26.057+00:002019-02-06T21:37:26.057+00:00Tom A and Sybok
The Prayer concerned is in a very...Tom A and Sybok<br /><br />The Prayer concerned is in a very ancient document which used to be thought to be the Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus of Rome. It is now known not to be that document. It should not have been introduced into the Latin Rite.<br /><br />It is used in Eastern Catholic communities, and its adequacy has for centuries been acknowledged by Rome. They still do use it.<br /><Fr John Hunwickehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17766211573399409633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-2650051667011766032019-02-06T21:30:50.308+00:002019-02-06T21:30:50.308+00:00Dear Tom,
That is a misconception about the inst...Dear Tom, <br /><br />That is a misconception about the installation, the prayer is used in the ordination of Coptic bishops - when a Coptic priest is consecrated a bishop the prayer used is almost the same as in the modern Roman rite an taken from the Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus. <br /><br />Of course I prefer for the Roman rite the old ritual but fact remains the modern Roman rite prayer Sybokhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03841768414163141106noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-49696048011553137432019-02-06T20:37:25.665+00:002019-02-06T20:37:25.665+00:00modern Roman rite ordination of bishops uses the o...modern Roman rite ordination of bishops uses the ordination prayer for bishops found in the Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus. This prayer is the same, more or less, as the ancient Coptic rite of ordination (an article about this topic http://sspx.org/en/validity-new-rite-episcopal-consecrations-2 ) <br /><br />so if Latin bishops are invalid then Coptic ones are too and have been since antiquitySybokhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03841768414163141106noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-43274174329753833532019-02-06T15:59:34.049+00:002019-02-06T15:59:34.049+00:00What an incoherent article. Now you accuse sedeva...What an incoherent article. Now you accuse sedevacantists of ignorance of Eastern Orders? What does that have to do with the Roman Rites? Paul 6 changed the Roman Rites. He based the episcopal rite on an eastern installation ceremony, not an eastern ordination rite. Now we are suppose to accept this new form as valid simply because Montini says so. He is also the man who approved the Tom A.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13680594973982446985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-68128479795755348382019-02-06T15:13:12.875+00:002019-02-06T15:13:12.875+00:00Dear AsTheRain
The Sede Pope, Mario Derksen, and ...Dear AsTheRain<br /><br />The Sede Pope, Mario Derksen, and His Secretary of State, the very funny, Fr Anthony Cekada, have been responded to at Sedevacantist Watch, at the True or False Pope Blog.<br /><br />http://www.trueorfalsepope.com/p/sedevacantist-watch.html<br /><br />Just for laughs, ABS used to respond directly to the Sede Pope, Mario, but it quickly became a drag because each time ABSMick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-32592935061877524092019-02-06T14:08:56.549+00:002019-02-06T14:08:56.549+00:00DEar Mr Malach
Does one have to read every blog i...DEar Mr Malach<br /><br />Does one have to read every blog in the Internet in order to avoid being called "a liar"? When I invited answers to particular precise questions, I was inviting them onto my blog. I did not receive any. I have no intention to spend every minute of my life chasing blogs.<br /><br />If you look back at my pieces, you will see my suggestion that those who really Fr John Hunwickehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17766211573399409633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-81758361345902573142019-02-06T05:33:17.883+00:002019-02-06T05:33:17.883+00:00Father Hunwicke, in your "Are they really bis...Father Hunwicke, in your "Are they really bishops?" articles, you mention that you won't enable comments until you've completed the series. After you completed the series, you still didn't enable comments. Perhaps this is why you said no answers have been received?<br /><br />That being said, perhaps you missed that between Novus Ordo Watch and Father Cekada, there have beenAsTheRainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06659812439922465580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-39948780635037976572019-02-06T03:17:27.244+00:002019-02-06T03:17:27.244+00:00“What was awful about Lewis was not so much his po...“What was awful about Lewis was not so much his politics, the rhetoric of ‘fact’ about the Incarnation or a defence of sexual eccentricity that was so much at variance with his moral doctrine, as his sermonizing, his slang and the vulgar wish not to be part of an ‘inner ring’. It was, and is, deeply unpleasant to discover that Christianity’s business is not only to create ‘little Christs’ withoutAnnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16864933595380979520noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-70953116274788303062019-02-06T01:43:24.215+00:002019-02-06T01:43:24.215+00:00idiots?idiots?poni albinegrohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00965302339970135104noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-82452542856513904372019-02-06T00:33:17.131+00:002019-02-06T00:33:17.131+00:00Mr. Hunwicke, you do not deserve to be called Fath...Mr. Hunwicke, you do not deserve to be called Father any longer. A father does not take his children to drink from the poisonous waters of heresy and apostasy that stream from the mountains of Bergoglio's pontificate. <br /><br />You are complicit to a false pope and we (the faithful) will keep that on record until the day you die, when you will have to answer to God as to why you remained inA voice that cries in the desert...https://www.blogger.com/profile/01712370870728453399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-23769680412786388292019-02-05T22:59:58.790+00:002019-02-05T22:59:58.790+00:00So, what is your opinion of Fr. Gregory Hesse'...So, what is your opinion of Fr. Gregory Hesse's take on the Novus Ordo?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14597376228489379250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-43535698186034515492019-02-05T21:36:48.877+00:002019-02-05T21:36:48.877+00:00Maybe the Sedevacantists have unintentionally inte...Maybe the Sedevacantists have unintentionally internalised the wry observation of Groucho Mark who refused an invitation to join a certain group - <i>I'd never join a group that'd have someone like me as a member.</i>Mick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-2516299241802340682019-02-05T21:32:55.076+00:002019-02-05T21:32:55.076+00:00OF COURSE you won't print MY comments, will yo...OF COURSE you won't print MY comments, will you "father"?Warren Malachhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14957375486307157920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-87881291178833635312019-02-05T21:31:55.398+00:002019-02-05T21:31:55.398+00:00You are a liar when you say that there has been no...You are a liar when you say that there has been no response to your position.<br />Novusordowatch.org responded on 1/16 and again on 1/22. If you are SO knowledgeable about the Sedevacantists you will know of this, but you prefer to ignore the facts about this, as about so much you say on this subject, such as how the Oriental Catholic orders would "validate" every Roman Rite "Warren Malachhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14957375486307157920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-18398008997903938452019-02-05T21:25:58.162+00:002019-02-05T21:25:58.162+00:00Dear Father, I see that the part 3 of the original...Dear Father, I see that the part 3 of the original post (Jan. 3, 2019) indeed has not received any comments. Probably because the comments were not enabled right after the posting. As to me, I did not check again later.<br /><br />I can here only refer to the critique by late Dom Athanasius Kroeger, OSB, published in Una Voce Korrespondenz in the early 70s, regarding reasons to doubt the valitityPulexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13164993172745639593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-42463734407688312922019-02-05T17:28:50.272+00:002019-02-05T17:28:50.272+00:00Sacrelige: https://www.gloria.tv/article/41nPStVM...Sacrelige: https://www.gloria.tv/article/41nPStVM4rCT4aHNqrQdmVKAnAquahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06691722006352014613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-53784493155754748912019-02-05T17:15:01.814+00:002019-02-05T17:15:01.814+00:00"..the invalidity of modern Orders"
Any..."..the invalidity of modern Orders"<br /><br />Any thought on those want to create a "new" order of women Deacons? At what point does any ordination become invalid?<br /><br />BTW, I don't question the validity of the current Latin Rite Bishop, Priestly and Deacon ordination.<br /><br />Thanks.John F. Kennedyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16497490500148126673noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-82757613435854106492019-02-05T14:23:24.348+00:002019-02-05T14:23:24.348+00:00Unanswerable.Unanswerable.Donna Bethellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03889995101309151034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-21953351606448766652019-02-05T13:38:43.897+00:002019-02-05T13:38:43.897+00:00Father, are you praying for these invalidists and ...Father, are you praying for these invalidists and sedevacantists?<br /><br />"And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing."<br /><br />We all deserve hell, God could withdraw grace from anyone of us, it is a gift we do not deserve. <br /><br />We liveAmyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16565680183999033730noreply@blogger.com