tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post382852708741705372..comments2024-03-28T12:26:03.686+00:00Comments on Fr Hunwicke's Mutual Enrichment: My opinion on Apostolicae curaeFr John Hunwickehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17766211573399409633noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-30486121681339978142010-08-25T20:48:19.965+01:002010-08-25T20:48:19.965+01:00(you probably know this) but missing words are the...(you probably know this) but missing words are the lesser matter - it has much much more to do with historical intent. The English Church, that is among the English bishops over the centuries since the reformation, being so evangelical - that is rejection of the sacrifice of the mass (article 31) and a rejection of a sacrificial priesthood and instead viewed it (depending on the tastes of the Sybokhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03841768414163141106noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-53932240455165305582010-08-24T13:44:43.902+01:002010-08-24T13:44:43.902+01:00Thanks very much, William Tighe and Rubricarius, f...Thanks very much, William Tighe and Rubricarius, for the detailed information on the Addai and Mari affair, and the Pian Revision of the Ordination Rites. I appreciate it immensely.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-10419744496795557972010-08-23T09:01:31.261+01:002010-08-23T09:01:31.261+01:00Albertus,
I have a copy of a Pontificale that was...Albertus,<br /><br />I have a copy of a <i>Pontificale</i> that was used for the consecration of Cardinal Godfrey. It is full of ball pen crossings-out and pasted in typed pieces of paper, both rubrics and text. Unfortunately, the book is not to hand but I will be able to see it a the weekend. If I remember correctly the order of prayers was changed, I don't think there were net omissions.Rubricariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05050302650867319277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-17201378151501562472010-08-22T20:48:38.305+01:002010-08-22T20:48:38.305+01:00Indeed, Albertus, as I wrote elsewhere:
The best ...Indeed, Albertus, as I wrote elsewhere:<br /><br />The best study of the anaphora of Addai and Mari (together with a critical edition and commentary) is: *The Eucharistic Prayer of Addai and Mari* by A. Gelston (Oxford University Press, 1992).<br /><br />In the tripartite discussions between Rome, the Chaldean Catholic Church and the "Assyrian" Church which went on between 1984 and 2003William Tighehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16634494183165592707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-51217442988892773062010-08-22T17:32:31.628+01:002010-08-22T17:32:31.628+01:00Also, I am now extremely curious as to the matter ...Also, I am now extremely curious as to the matter and form of episcopal consecration and priestly ordination in the Abyssinian Church, which Rome - and the Eastern Orthodox - recognise.<br />As for Addai and Mari, regardless of John Paul II's recognition of the validity of that canon sans consecration, many traditionlly-minded RC priests - myself included - find the reasoning behind the Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-43569754909586783152010-08-22T17:21:53.400+01:002010-08-22T17:21:53.400+01:00What exactly was changed in the Roman rite of epis...What exactly was changed in the Roman rite of episcopal consecrationn in 1947? I have never heard of this before. I thought that Pius XII had only determined authoritatively the matter and form of holy orders, including episcopacy, (the form of which Paul VI changed quite imprudently caused to be changed.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-49980404913496517182010-08-22T03:25:56.929+01:002010-08-22T03:25:56.929+01:00"Father, who was the 17th c Scottish Bishop?&..."Father, who was the 17th c Scottish Bishop?"<br /><br />John Gordon, quondam Bishop of Galloway. Consecrated in Glasgow Cathedral in 1688, he became a Catholic in 1704.William Tighehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16634494183165592707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-56492780487159803912010-08-21T20:01:17.897+01:002010-08-21T20:01:17.897+01:00Father, who was the 17th c Scottish Bishop?Father, who was the 17th c Scottish Bishop?Denyshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357982517008933404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-10011374814673800332010-08-21T18:25:53.366+01:002010-08-21T18:25:53.366+01:00Father, how was the "Dutch Touch" diffus...Father, how was the "Dutch Touch" diffused beyond England? Was any effort made to spread this certainty to other provinces of the Communion. I know that in Canada it was normal for the Polish National Catholic bishop to be among the co-consecrators but I don't know if he would recite the words.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07352598115559204014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-42796360249768024242010-08-21T17:32:23.031+01:002010-08-21T17:32:23.031+01:00Rubricarius: though orthodox Old Roman Catholic bi...Rubricarius: though orthodox Old Roman Catholic bishops too have been ordained using the Tridentine Rite pre-dating 1947 and there is one active in this country... ;o)Canon Jerome Lloyd OSJVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10764146635659770019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-59707573082420935942010-08-21T16:34:46.497+01:002010-08-21T16:34:46.497+01:00At my own diaconal ordination, just about my only ...At my own diaconal ordination, just about my only memory is of the not inconsiderable downward pressure of my Bishop's hands at the laying-on of hands. Having observed him at subsequent diaconal and sacerdotal ordinations, it would appear to be very much a part of his <i>ars celebrandi</i>.Trisagionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15689037119871067090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-82255297134665861472010-08-21T16:28:20.980+01:002010-08-21T16:28:20.980+01:00At one time, two bishops of England and Wales that...At one time, two bishops of England and Wales that I can recall would not lay on hands, but preferred mystically to hover their hands over the heads of the ordinands. I think that it probably fulfilled the requirement, but it used to worry the ordinands not a little. One confessed to jerking upwards so that his head contacted his bishop's hands.<br />One of these prelates has died, the other Pastor in Montehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05949810648656544072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-50555185133879821572010-08-21T15:04:56.404+01:002010-08-21T15:04:56.404+01:00”There are plausible stories about scrupulous RC b...<i>”There are plausible stories about scrupulous RC bishops in the old days who reordained all their neopresbyteri in the sacristy…”</i><br /><br />Years ago when Archbishop John Charles McQuaid of Dublin ordained priests, he was noted for one thing: the laying on of hands. But John Charles didn’t just ‘lay’ hands on your head, he pressed down <i>hard</i>. Though not a large man he could exert GORhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14313101159848740722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-78618444959556374862010-08-21T14:08:41.295+01:002010-08-21T14:08:41.295+01:00"No; only joking. But it would be a nice expe..."No; only joking. But it would be a nice experience. Is Mgr Rifan due to be in England soon?"<br /><br />But Mgr. Rifan was not consectrated according to the 'Tridentine' Ponficial. Neither for that matter were the Lefebvrist four nor their episcopal cousins descending from Abp. Ngo-Dinh Thuc. All were consecrated using the new rite introduced in 1947 which contained some not Rubricariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05050302650867319277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-9025335855858933842010-08-21T13:15:58.323+01:002010-08-21T13:15:58.323+01:00"It is an echo of the old gut feeling that th...<i>"It is an echo of the old gut feeling that the people-I-don't-like-have-invalid-Orders."</i><br /><br />Fr. Hunwicke, I still think that this judgment is manifestly untrue and, if I may say so, unjust. <br /><br />Rome was never any more keen on the Eastern Schismatics than she was on the Anglicans, but she never doubted the validity of the former's Orders. Even, as you Gideon Ertnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06572157722582694936noreply@blogger.com