tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post3309054005374113618..comments2024-03-29T09:39:50.604+00:00Comments on Fr Hunwicke's Mutual Enrichment: Extra Ecclesiam ...Fr John Hunwickehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17766211573399409633noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-18267239819159336862020-09-26T01:42:22.867+01:002020-09-26T01:42:22.867+01:00CCC #847, which the CDF refers to in that lefter, ...CCC #847, which the CDF refers to in that lefter, quotes from Lumen Gentium 16. The full text is <br /><br />16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their Jhayeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07064136312272621107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-63215328438618352322020-09-25T17:02:30.757+01:002020-09-25T17:02:30.757+01:00In its letter of October 2016 to Brother Andre Mar...In its letter of October 2016 to Brother Andre Marie of the St. Benedict Center, the CDF laid out the "official doctrine of the Church".<br /><br />"As the Congregation stated in our April 15 letter to you, which the Congregation also shared with Bishop Libasci, the principle "Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus" must be interpreted according to the official doctrine of the Jhayeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07064136312272621107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-17757818729643513592020-09-25T11:06:31.348+01:002020-09-25T11:06:31.348+01:00I can remember looking a Lowry's bus gueue and...I can remember looking a Lowry's bus gueue and thing thst Christ deid for thris lot.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> <br /><br /> Frederick Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06106669441369527118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-45776857438958580742020-09-24T19:58:03.612+01:002020-09-24T19:58:03.612+01:00Pardon me, this paragraph belonged at the end of t...Pardon me, this paragraph belonged at the end of the first comment or the beginning of the second:<br /><br />Thus where the Holy Office accuses the Saint Benedict Center of parting ways with Catholic doctrine is in the sufficiency of the implicit <i>votum</i> of entering the Church for those who are involved in invincible ignorance, which the Holy Office says has been clearly taught in the Calvin Engimehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03598204520857427596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-54643994068228944822020-09-24T17:48:29.503+01:002020-09-24T17:48:29.503+01:00The Saint Benedict Center also wished for this sec...The Saint Benedict Center also wished for this second opinion to be infallibly condemned as heretical, for Karam's seventh proposition proposed to be censured was: "One can be saved who dies ignorant of Christ and His Church." If their cause had only been to champion the necessity of explicit faith in Christ by necessity of means, it would have been legitimate; this opinion has Calvin Engimehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03598204520857427596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-79106742916409449262020-09-24T17:47:45.854+01:002020-09-24T17:47:45.854+01:00I think that where Feeney really had a point about...I think that where Feeney really had a point about the "liberal sense" of baptism of desire with regard to to the man on the desert island is the necessity of faith, and he really could have done a service to the Church with this if he had accepted the guidance of the magisterium instead of developing his novel opinion from the 1950s forward that even if an unbaptised person should die Calvin Engimehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03598204520857427596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-15486273744369870892020-09-24T17:45:59.830+01:002020-09-24T17:45:59.830+01:00In my opinion, even after the promulgation of Lume...In my opinion, even after the promulgation of <i>Lumen gentium</i> and <i>Dominus Iesus</i>, the letter <a href="https://books.google.com/books?id=oGYzWUn7I4QC&pg=PA100" rel="nofollow"><i>Supreme haec sacra</i></a> of the Holy Office to the Archbishop of Boston remains, as Msgr Fenton called it in 1958, "by far the most complete and explicit authoritative statement of the ecclesiastical Calvin Engimehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03598204520857427596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-5731160728771397172020-09-23T16:38:58.269+01:002020-09-23T16:38:58.269+01:00Dear Mr. Paul A-Hardy, you cannot "renounce y...Dear Mr. Paul A-Hardy, you cannot "renounce your baptism". As long as it was Trinitarian and done with the correct words (no guarantee in today's Church unfortunately) then it is indelible. I don't understand why the Orthodox would even condone rebaptising. <br /><br />It was always my understanding that anyone properly baptized in the Trinitarian manner no matter by what faith John Patrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17352405449391514146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-69050531759955804332020-09-23T14:54:42.590+01:002020-09-23T14:54:42.590+01:00Dear Father. Many of your readers may not be aware...Dear Father. Many of your readers may not be aware that the so-called Fennyites are in complete communion with The Church.<br /><br />Fr Z observes; <i>interview →<br />Some thoughts about the SSPX, Rome, and unity<br />Posted on 24 January 2009 by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf<br />People of good will can differ on theological points and still remain in unity. <br /><br />People of good will can attain Mick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-53009237200972373612020-09-23T10:36:56.480+01:002020-09-23T10:36:56.480+01:00Paul-A. Hardy, I would say that the true applicati...Paul-A. Hardy, I would say that the true application here of Our Lord's words, "By their fruits ye shall know them" is that precisely where Catholics, and members of the hierarchy in particular, have neglected or violated Catholic truth and morality, is where bad fruits have come. <br /><br />The following of Catholic truth in its fullness (which is still completely available and Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05594033619632183321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-21519026746552753662020-09-23T10:11:23.059+01:002020-09-23T10:11:23.059+01:00The more recent Magisterium has also indicated tha...The more recent Magisterium has also indicated that salvation outside the visible boundaries of the Church for the invincibly ignorant, although possible, is nonetheless more difficult:<br /><br />'If it is true that the followers of other religions can receive divine grace, it is also certain that objectively speaking they are in a gravely deficient situation in comparison with those who, inBenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05594033619632183321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-56107008764371138522020-09-23T03:42:33.949+01:002020-09-23T03:42:33.949+01:00The longer of my two posts above hadn't appear...The longer of my two posts above hadn't appeared here when next I looked in and I thought our host had decided that it wasn't helpful to the discussion. <br /><br />I decided to try my luck again with a shorter extract.<br /><br />Now I see that both posts are here and I apologize for the duplication. <br /><br />1863 is the correct date for the encyclical.Jhayeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07064136312272621107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-31555629678014185752020-09-22T21:06:57.933+01:002020-09-22T21:06:57.933+01:00We should not forget the condemnation of Feeneyism...We should not forget the condemnation of Feeneyism.<br />motupropriohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06261356560114077508noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-10466168184943468192020-09-22T20:10:10.576+01:002020-09-22T20:10:10.576+01:00Dear Mr. Hardy. There has always been wheat and ch...Dear Mr. Hardy. There has always been wheat and chaff inside The Catholic Church and there will be until the end of time but modern errors do not cancel Catholic Doctrine and as Saint Vincent of Lerins (Commonitory) teaches us, allowing prelates to propagate novelties is one way God tests us to see if we love Him.<br /><br />We show our love of God by remaining in His One True Holy Roman CatholicMick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-8753563214983430402020-09-22T19:31:33.646+01:002020-09-22T19:31:33.646+01:00Nine years later (1863) Bl. Pope Pius IX expanded ...Nine years later (1863) Bl. Pope Pius IX expanded on this in his Encyclical Quanto Conficiamur Moerore.<br /><br />'There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the Jhayeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07064136312272621107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-15790109735184732882020-09-22T00:42:42.430+01:002020-09-22T00:42:42.430+01:00Later words from Bl Pope Pius IX (Quanto Conficiam...Later words from Bl Pope Pius IX (Quanto Conficiamur Moerore - 1853)<br /><br />"7. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly Jhayeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07064136312272621107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-76740803980050889502020-09-21T23:58:15.529+01:002020-09-21T23:58:15.529+01:00I was brought up on this belief anybody who is not...I was brought up on this belief anybody who is not in full canonical communion with the See of S Peter is hell-bound. But as I stand in our local Russian church on the Feast of the Nativity of the Theotokos I am less clear about. But then I return home and hear how Cardinal Joseph Tobin of Newark, New Jersey has just endorsed the "catholic" Biden for President of the USA—advocate of 9thPaul-A. Hardyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11625698481730141561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-41312312976058859682020-09-21T21:00:05.172+01:002020-09-21T21:00:05.172+01:00I wonder just how many are ïnvincibly ignorant. Ho...I wonder just how many are ïnvincibly ignorant. How many have a sneaking suspicious that the Catholic Church is the end point and that leaving their friends, and community to suffer the consequences of becoming a Catholic is too much for them. And that goes for all those do-gooders in the modern world. Will do anything good as long as one's line of thought (hinted at by the actions of the Michael Phillipshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13585186138802946930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-36045822797204278722020-09-21T18:42:04.235+01:002020-09-21T18:42:04.235+01:00Dear Father. The rhetorical resurrection of the EE...Dear Father. The rhetorical resurrection of the EENS Doctrine is owning to the surrender of modern Catholic Churchmen to ecumenism - which is the Universal Solvent of Tradition - and the desire to not offend rather than the to Teach.<br /><br />The ideology of the modern Catholic Churchmen seems to have anticipated and/or aped the ideology of Michel Foucault, one of the French 1968ers - “Il est Mick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-9888395581590413462020-09-21T17:53:41.631+01:002020-09-21T17:53:41.631+01:00I used to doubt that people could be really invinc...I used to doubt that people could be really invincibly ignorant about basic facts of the Faith, etc.<br /><br />And then, I started listening to Catholic Answers' call-in shows. Hoboy, there is no shortage of honest ignorance out there. People who seem like decently educated adult members of society can be seriously ignorant of basic facts about all kinds of things. <br /><br />Sometimes theyBansheehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12594214770417497135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-23157440956175200242020-09-21T17:30:33.932+01:002020-09-21T17:30:33.932+01:00Archbishop Lefebvre has a very good discussion of ...Archbishop Lefebvre has a very good discussion of this at chapter ten of his Open Letter to Confused Catholics, which may be found here: <br />http://www.sspxasia.com/Documents/Archbishop-Lefebvre/OpenLetterToConfusedCatholics/Chapter-10.htmWoodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08910654300435533408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-36693157249807027702020-09-21T15:01:54.260+01:002020-09-21T15:01:54.260+01:00It is, to me, very mysterious that the doctrinal t...It is, to me, very mysterious that the doctrinal tag Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus is always given in Latin. Is this an embarrassed way of covering up an embarrassing doctrine ? Pages and pages were written about it following the Fr Feeney case in the 1940s. Shaun Davieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00884286568978407343noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-8518564696874623282020-09-21T14:15:01.961+01:002020-09-21T14:15:01.961+01:00Moreover, the proposition that there is no grace o...Moreover, the proposition that there is no grace outside the Church was one of the 101 propositions from the writings of the Jansenist Quesnel which Clement XI condemned in his bill Unigenitus of 1713.PMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06144651697262763099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-4672302202512117212020-09-21T12:03:14.240+01:002020-09-21T12:03:14.240+01:00Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus is a dogma of the Cath...Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus is a dogma of the Catholic Church for centuries & cannot be explained or revised to suit individual or collective whims. The Fathers of the Church were explicit on this & compared it to Noah's Ark where all that were outside the Ark (the CC) perished. “There is indeed one universal church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, in which Ana Milanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13614286775064340959noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-53626949513412701892020-09-21T11:11:21.809+01:002020-09-21T11:11:21.809+01:00The hermeneutic of continuity:
‘We must hold it a...The hermeneutic of continuity:<br /><br />‘We must hold it as of faith that no one can be saved outside of the apostolic Roman Church...On the other hand, it must be held as certain that those who live in ignorance of the true religion, if such ignorance be invincible, are not subject to any guilt in this matter before the eyes of the Lord. But then, who would dare to set limits to this ignoranceBenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05594033619632183321noreply@blogger.com