tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post3214694291488260419..comments2024-03-28T22:56:16.016+00:00Comments on Fr Hunwicke's Mutual Enrichment: The Antidote to PrideFr John Hunwickehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17766211573399409633noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-5926355184707668322019-06-30T19:00:55.409+01:002019-06-30T19:00:55.409+01:00Nicolas Bellord:I wondered what St Thomas Aquinas ...Nicolas Bellord:I wondered what St Thomas Aquinas would say about "inducas", since he wrote an "Expositio" in the same language. Those enterprising Dominicans have uploaded the entire text in both Latin and English: <br /><br />https://dhspriory.org/thomas/PaterNoster.htm<br /><br />And lead us not into temptation. "There are those who have sinned and desire forgiveness frjustinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10109539584303934489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-16780188309030158232019-06-30T13:04:05.247+01:002019-06-30T13:04:05.247+01:00frjustin: Language is such a subtle thing. The f...frjustin: Language is such a subtle thing. The first Syriac version you quote suggests that the request is to God that we should not be tempted whilst the Ephrem's version is a request to God not to lead us into temptation. I would suggest that we cannot be totally certain of the meaning in either case as often happens in the imperative mood. I tend to the latter meaning though as in the Nicolas Bellordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08063019108964247676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-3953827114595621602019-06-29T13:53:37.628+01:002019-06-29T13:53:37.628+01:00@George: we may never know what our Lord's equ...@George: we may never know what our Lord's equivalent of "inducas" was in Aramaic or possibly Mishnaic Hebrew, which was the language of prayer at the time.<br /><br />But we do know how it was translated into Syriac, an exclusively Christian language closely related to Aramaic and Hebrew. In the "Peshitta", the Syriac translation of the New Testament, Matthew 6:13 is frjustinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10109539584303934489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-67226946886728518572019-06-28T23:12:39.615+01:002019-06-28T23:12:39.615+01:00George: Surely the whole purpose of God creating ...George: Surely the whole purpose of God creating us is to put us to the test and thus he does allow us to be tempted. Nicolas Bellordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08063019108964247676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-50461713859213007592019-06-28T12:19:34.935+01:002019-06-28T12:19:34.935+01:00fjustin: Many thanks for these interesting examp...fjustin: Many thanks for these interesting examples. Perhaps it is just that 'fall' is a free translation but I would suggest that in the end most if not all have the same meaning of 'lead us not into temptation' rather than any idea about actually succumbing to the temptation.Nicolas Bellordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08063019108964247676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-32972569788976457372019-06-28T02:40:37.078+01:002019-06-28T02:40:37.078+01:00Nicolas Bellord: It may well be that to translate...Nicolas Bellord: It may well be that to translate 'inducas' as 'fall' is an aberration in these linguistic traditions, but it seems to me that it is intuitively more in keeping with how we understand God's relationship to his creatures. The real mystery to me is (and I suppose I share this with the pope) is our Lord's use of the equivalent of "inducas."Robert H. Holdenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09215973451494074015noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-72507018604385071732019-06-27T14:23:49.424+01:002019-06-27T14:23:49.424+01:00For more languages in which "et ne nos induca...For more languages in which "et ne nos inducas" is NOT translated as "lead us not", see this webpage, which contains the full text of the Our Father:<br /><br />http://www.orbilat.com/Languages/Gallo-Romance_examples.html Some examples:<br /><br />Old French (12th century): ne soffre que nos soions tempte par mauvesse temptation<br />Eastern Walloon: Ni nos leyîz nin toumer frjustinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10109539584303934489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-8657537260213374112019-06-27T13:31:16.288+01:002019-06-27T13:31:16.288+01:00frjustin: Old Provencal in reality comes in many ...frjustin: Old Provencal in reality comes in many different forms eventually evolving into different languages: Spanish, Portuguese, Italian etc. However from what you tell us it does seem that the use of 'caer', 'cazer' etc appears fairly early but mainly in the dialects of the Iberian peninsular with the exception of Sicily. I just wonder why 'inducas' managed to get Nicolas Bellordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08063019108964247676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-23412316725399667692019-06-26T21:09:13.838+01:002019-06-26T21:09:13.838+01:00My purpose was more to demonstrate that the use of...My purpose was more to demonstrate that the use of 'caer' and 'cair' ("fall") in the Spanish and Portuguese translations, is not peculiar to those languages. It first appeared in Andalusi Romance which was spoken until the 13th century in the Iberian peninsula when it was displaced mostly by Castilian Spanish. These early sources all demonstrate the Pater's use of frjustinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10109539584303934489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-43788187504225726202019-06-26T11:15:49.268+01:002019-06-26T11:15:49.268+01:00I was hoping we could find a Pater Noster in OLD P...I was hoping we could find a Pater Noster in OLD Provencal by which I mean the language of the Provincia Romana which flowered around the 13th century and extended from Portugal to Genoa. In fact it came in many different dialects as is illustrated in a Descort (Discord!) by Raimbaut de Vaqueiras which has verses in Provencal, Genoese, Old French, Gascon and Galician/Portuguese. These various Nicolas Bellordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08063019108964247676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-72294679983544281002019-06-26T02:04:39.463+01:002019-06-26T02:04:39.463+01:00This website shows plaques of the Pater in Occitan...This website shows plaques of the Pater in Occitan and in Provençal:<br /><br />https://www.conservatoire-documentaire-culturel-frederic-mistral.fr/119+le-provencal-pour-ne-pas-perdre-son-latin.html<br /><br />The Pater in Occitan reads: Paire nòstre que siès dins lo cèl, Que ton nom se santifique, Que ton rènhe nos avènga, Que ta volontat se faga sus la tèrra coma dins lo cèl. Dona-nos uèi frjustinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10109539584303934489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-21768006286469680042019-06-25T12:22:39.649+01:002019-06-25T12:22:39.649+01:00@George But again the Spanish 'en' can be...@George But again the Spanish 'en' can be translated into either 'in' or 'into'. Surely though after the verb caer 'into' seems to be the most likely meaning. 'To fall in temptation' is not an obvious meaning.<br /><br />There is a useful site at:<br /><br />http://www.krassotkin.ru/sites/prayer.su/other/all-languages.html<br /><br />which leads to the Nicolas Bellordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08063019108964247676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-64812312908272189182019-06-24T16:31:20.341+01:002019-06-24T16:31:20.341+01:00Brazilians use "você" (sometimes reduced...Brazilians use "você" (sometimes reduced to "cê")among friends, "o senhor" or "a senhora" to strangers, and "vós" to God throughout the liturgy. "Tu" remains in common phrases: "Deus te pague" - may God repay you.<br /><br />The Collect for St John [the] Baptist, e.g., reads "concedei à 'vossa' Igreja" - grantfrjustinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10109539584303934489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-22312207465602370142019-06-24T00:08:56.542+01:002019-06-24T00:08:56.542+01:00Ever since I've learned Spanish, many years ag...Ever since I've learned Spanish, many years ago, the Pater Noster has always been said in the way the French and now the Italians have begun to say it, namely: "no nos dejes caer en la tentación." Anyone know how long the Spaniards have been mis-translating the Greek?Robert H. Holdenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09215973451494074015noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-88231758492108183802019-06-23T21:24:51.682+01:002019-06-23T21:24:51.682+01:00@Nicholas Bellord: In European Portuguese the curr...@Nicholas Bellord: In European Portuguese the current formal use is "você", "vós" only being used in the interior any more. As in other Latin languages "tu" is singular, "vós" plural. Curiously, the oldest translations of the Pater use "tu".Marco da Vinhahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06092410765851812842noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-63595721099533998012019-06-23T17:03:14.208+01:002019-06-23T17:03:14.208+01:00@Ed the Roman: I am not sure that you are correct...@Ed the Roman: I am not sure that you are correct in saying that using "Tu" in French is the same as saying "Thou" in English. In French the use of "Tu" is regarded as very familiar rather than the formal "Vous". In Spanish the formal use is "usted" and in Portuguese you use "O Senhor" (My Lord) when speaking to someone formally. I Nicolas Bellordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08063019108964247676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-66457857234876259702019-06-22T22:47:57.729+01:002019-06-22T22:47:57.729+01:00Well, using "Tu" for God is the same as ...Well, using "Tu" for God is the same as saying "Thou" in English. The French consulate in America has an amusing page on when to use <i>tutoiement</i> and when not to.Ed the Romanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13646391834821547517noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-57342908621344958432019-06-21T10:49:44.999+01:002019-06-21T10:49:44.999+01:00@Fr. Justin:
"What makes this molehill into ...@Fr. Justin: <br />"What makes this molehill into a mountain is the implication that traditional translations were wrong in spite of centuries of use, and now the bishops have suddenly discovered what Jesus really meant to say. Nossa!"<br /><br />Thank you for being the first person to actually address my concerns. Put in that light, then yes, it makes sense.Marco da Vinhahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06092410765851812842noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-77244307992077192012019-06-20T14:34:17.321+01:002019-06-20T14:34:17.321+01:00'Super-essential' instead of 'daily...'Super-essential' instead of 'daily' is a change that would have directed us and the world (through the publicity) to the heart of the Word, the source and summit of the Church's life.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08313924227726144496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-408046842036245692019-06-18T18:04:21.441+01:002019-06-18T18:04:21.441+01:00@Marco da Vinha: what Mary Beard and other comment...@Marco da Vinha: what Mary Beard and other commentators fail to realize is that the Italian bishops were not translating the Lord's Prayer from the Greek of St Matthew's Gospel. They were translating primarily from the Latin translation as used in the Roman rite Mass.<br /><br />As you point out, the Portuguese/Brazilian bishops were familiar with the popular translation of the Lord'sfrjustinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10109539584303934489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-23783055112263290402019-06-18T11:35:34.072+01:002019-06-18T11:35:34.072+01:00Francis wanted change in Lord’s Prayer and Gloria....Francis wanted change in Lord’s Prayer and Gloria. After that Italian Bishops’ Conference asked for change. Bishops’ Conferences ask for change because Francis wants change. Change in Gloria has not got much publicity.Voice from the roof tophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16297915058711054198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-52693950846692037542019-06-18T11:22:26.404+01:002019-06-18T11:22:26.404+01:00Generally though it seems to me that one needs to ...Generally though it seems to me that one needs to remember the difference between being tempted and succumbing to temptation. My understanding is that God puts us to the test by allowing us to be tempted. "Lead us not into temptation" is a plea not to be put to the test.<br />That is my understanding. However the proposed change of "Do not abandon us in temptation" seems toNicolas Bellordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08063019108964247676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-27790107438090733582019-06-18T11:15:52.402+01:002019-06-18T11:15:52.402+01:00@Marco da Vinha: You translate ""e não ...@Marco da Vinha: You translate ""e não nos deixeis cair em tentação" as "do not let us fall in temptation". The problem is that 'em' can equally be translated as 'into' in which case the translation would be "do not let us fall into temptation" which has a different meaning!Nicolas Bellordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08063019108964247676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-31998002181004276162019-06-18T10:48:25.262+01:002019-06-18T10:48:25.262+01:00I have several pre-VCII and tutoiement and all tha...I have several pre-VCII and tutoiement and all that, French missals in which "et ne nos inducas in tentationem"is translated "et ne nous laissez pas succomber à la tentation". <br /><br /><br />Lillibethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08665437159699375343noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-57302602234329992062019-06-18T08:55:54.037+01:002019-06-18T08:55:54.037+01:00I think we have the German Protestants to thank fo...I think we have the German Protestants to thank for the resistance, so far, of the Catholic bishops there.Michael Leahyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15044897013849386271noreply@blogger.com