tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post2960542032649542120..comments2024-03-29T09:39:50.604+00:00Comments on Fr Hunwicke's Mutual Enrichment: Apostolicae curaeFr John Hunwickehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17766211573399409633noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-21440337710943442132010-07-30T09:01:03.451+01:002010-07-30T09:01:03.451+01:00The defect of form considered by Leo XIII was in t...The defect of form considered by Leo XIII was in the Edwardine Ordinal which did not adequately specify the Order being conferred. This does not apply in the same way to later Ordinals (including 1662) in which this particular defect was removed. The defect of intention regards the the theology of priesthood held by Cranmer et al., and Pope Leo's arguments remain cogent, but of course do not Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-21143203525890871452010-07-30T06:02:00.492+01:002010-07-30T06:02:00.492+01:00One point that may help: conditional administratio...One point that may help: conditional administration of a sacrament is carried out only if there is a strong argument that the original presumed administration of the sacrament was valid, but some uncertainty remains; absolute administration of a sacrament is carried out in all other cases.<br /><br />This almost reverses what one would imagine to be the case, namely, that whenever there is any Joshuahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17387698013828199070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-68051370568707467372010-07-30T05:17:32.063+01:002010-07-30T05:17:32.063+01:00Mgr Leonard was able to provide documentary eviden...Mgr Leonard was able to provide documentary evidence that both he and his ordaining Anglican prelate held the Catholic theology of the priesthood at the time of his Anglican ordination. This was accepted as removing the defect of intention, but defect of form and a doubt about the validity of prelate's orders meant that a conditional ordination was judged to be necessary. <br /><br />No Mgr Andrew Wadsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12821521091262543139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-15101415314290890402010-07-30T03:07:57.409+01:002010-07-30T03:07:57.409+01:00"Am I right in thinking that some/many/most o..."Am I right in thinking that some/many/most of the Anglo-Catholic clergy have not in fact been ordained/"ordained" using the Anglican ordinal as set forth in the BCP, but either the old Rite Roman Pontifical (either Latin or English) or the Novus Ordo Pontifical?"<br /><br />I doubt very much that this is the case.<br /><br />"If I remember correctly, one of the reasons William Tighehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16634494183165592707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-41843358535603579582010-07-30T01:19:00.648+01:002010-07-30T01:19:00.648+01:00Am I right in thinking that some/many/most of the ...Am I right in thinking that some/many/most of the Anglo-Catholic clergy have not in fact been ordained/"ordained" using the Anglican ordinal as set forth in the BCP, but either the old Rite Roman Pontifical (either Latin or English) or the Novus Ordo Pontifical?<br /><br />If I remember correctly, one of the reasons that Mgr Graham Leonard's orders were considered to be plausibly davidforsterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15603145004197815827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-26413623985960393672010-07-30T00:04:05.717+01:002010-07-30T00:04:05.717+01:00I don't think the 'Dutch touch' makes ...I don't think the 'Dutch touch' makes a vast amount of difference in the overall consideration of this question. The reasoning of Apostolicae Curae is based on defect of form, intention and a lack of valid orders in the ordaining bishop. Even if the third of these obstacles is removed, either or both of the first two may impede the transmission of valid orders. We were always told in Mgr Andrew Wadsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12821521091262543139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-89495572060323738122010-07-29T23:37:39.531+01:002010-07-29T23:37:39.531+01:00Father John,
I wish you would discuss it. After ...Father John,<br /><br />I wish you would discuss it. After all, you wrote me a long letter in October 2003 from Lewdown, just after Bishop John Richards' death, in which you put the case for the "Dutch Touch," while at the same time giving good reasons for thinking why the intention to "join the Utrecht line of succession to that of Canterbury" might not pass muster with William Tighehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16634494183165592707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-7671080693057621132010-07-29T22:50:04.426+01:002010-07-29T22:50:04.426+01:00I wonder of something I wrote recently in another ...I wonder of something I wrote recently in another place has some relevance here:<br />I personally find it of great significance that Rome, whilst under <i>Anglicanorum Coetibus</i> insisting on absolute confirmation, and, where appropriate, ordination for those "coming home" does <b>not</b> insist that those making the journey cease and desist from recourse to the [Anglican] Mass and John F H Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01032884551581324489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-41353993820286036012010-07-29T22:38:43.152+01:002010-07-29T22:38:43.152+01:00From the perspective of a Roman, Apostolicae Curae...From the perspective of a Roman, Apostolicae Curae was correct in it's conclusions and is still binding. However AC applies to the situation as it stood in 1896, it does not (or at least did not until WO was instituted in the Anglican Communion) necessarily reflect the current state of Anglican orders since the infusion of Old Catholic episcopal lines (back when their orders weren't Conchúrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06616869558976756046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-87635250305629998812010-07-29T22:35:58.155+01:002010-07-29T22:35:58.155+01:00Your thoughts on the matter of ordination would be...Your thoughts on the matter of ordination would be most welcome, Father. As one who fully intends to walk across the bridge that the Holy Father has built for Anglicans, I think that your reflections upon Ap. Cur., the CCC and related issues would be helpful food for the journey. <br /><br />May I add that it is my understanding, upon very good authority here in Canada, that Anglicans will be Peregrinushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04434172372347946015noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-65836948093506444132010-07-29T22:09:08.576+01:002010-07-29T22:09:08.576+01:00"Then there are some rather fierce papists ar...<i>"Then there are some rather fierce papists around for whom the invalidity of Anglican Orders appears to be the central dogma of the Christian Faith"</i><br /><br />Alas, all too true. As "a rather fierce papist" myself, I have always felt less than wholly comfortable with Apostolicae Curiae (I do hope that I've spelled that correctly): even if the argument of AC is The Raven (C. Corax)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08605347404726608685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-65568166512385250022010-07-29T21:14:04.602+01:002010-07-29T21:14:04.602+01:00In a 2010 article in the Church Times (in the cont...In a 2010 article in the Church Times (in the context of the TAC signing of the CCC) Archbishop Hepworth was quoted as saying:<br /><br />“We did that to put our commitment beyond dispute, but we did not have to agree to Apostolicae Curae [which declares Anglican orders absolutely null and utterly void], because that is not in the Catechism.” <br /><br />I am curious as to Fr. H's Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00681296306358764468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-50620864249816793702010-07-29T20:54:24.950+01:002010-07-29T20:54:24.950+01:00Perhaps the first act of accepting the Magisterium...Perhaps the first act of accepting the Magisterium is to be obedient to that Magisterium. If the Magistium says says sign up to the Catechism so be it as long as one can do so in conscience. If not then no point in accepting the Magisterium.Doodlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10476313122409864359noreply@blogger.com