tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post2839437542674919303..comments2024-03-27T17:29:51.954+00:00Comments on Fr Hunwicke's Mutual Enrichment: Old MissalsFr John Hunwickehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17766211573399409633noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-53620558286523982892010-08-20T16:47:47.687+01:002010-08-20T16:47:47.687+01:00Given that priests who suffered permanently or tem...Given that priests who suffered permanently or temporarily from blindness, or who could read only very large type, could be given a dispensation to say masses of Our Lady and of the Dead, surely any priest would have memorized the entirety of such masses (just in case), meaning that 'missing bits' in older missals should easily be supplied from memory? So, one needn't leave bits out Fr Daniel Lloydhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06710850572779826095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-82410157957734897952010-08-20T16:33:55.727+01:002010-08-20T16:33:55.727+01:00Concerning S Joseph
It struck me some time last y...Concerning S Joseph<br /><br />It struck me some time last year that the growth in post-war interest in S Joseph (bearing in mind that most movements for change began in the ’fifties) might be due to a pastoral concern for the increased number of step-families after the war, or even the simple acknowledgement of broken homes with step-parents, although this is hardly a tested hypothesis. I thinkVincenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06040104215001249534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-64539359746474823492010-08-20T13:17:17.605+01:002010-08-20T13:17:17.605+01:00I would hope that the rabid 1962ers (the ones who ...I would hope that the rabid 1962ers (the ones who see the vilest disobedience wherever they see the slightest divergence from the canonized rubrics of (I presume) December 31 of that year, would recognize that a principal reason they can use such rubrics is the wholesale rejection by many in the Church of the rubrics of 1970-1975. The traditionalist movement should be correcting the frankly nonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17097976187067791789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-91992832508005037682010-08-20T11:38:33.058+01:002010-08-20T11:38:33.058+01:00The whole purpose of having a Missal (or other lit...The whole purpose of having a Missal (or other liturgical book) is that the celebrant does not have to memorise the entire liturgy; adapting (from whatever motives) is a recipe for mistakes. I recently attended a Mass with a visiting celebrant; following the Leonine Prayers he intoned the Salve Regina, which the congregation sang with gusto but then he made three attempts to sing the collect The Moderate Jacobitehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02643594581501536867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-35233401713759415132010-08-20T11:00:31.240+01:002010-08-20T11:00:31.240+01:00Dr. Fratantuono's observation is actually quit...Dr. Fratantuono's observation is actually quite easy to explain. In the introduction to the decree, <i>Cum nostra</i>, of 23rd March 1955 'simplifying' the rubrics (I would call it butchering them but <i>de gustibus</i>) publishers of the liturgical books were told not to make any changes:<br /><i>Caveant interim Pontificii librorum liturgicorum Editores, ut in novis editionibus Rubricariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05050302650867319277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-53822622498232426912010-08-20T10:51:09.247+01:002010-08-20T10:51:09.247+01:00"Why did it take almost two millennia to incl..."<i>Why did it take almost two millennia to include him?</i>" [i.e. St Joseph in Canon].<br />It surely happened much more quickly than that.Little Black Sambohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16699227938165106710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-59131165849716499502010-08-20T09:39:13.742+01:002010-08-20T09:39:13.742+01:00"If one were to simply use the use given in o..."If one were to simply use the use given in older missals, there could be theological issues at stake as well. If one were to offer Mass for the Immaculate Conception from a pre-1854 missal it would be the "Conception of the BVM" with propers pertaining to the older feast and not the newer."<br /><br />Mmmm... except Pio Nonno's promulgation of the doctrine was based upon Canon Jerome Lloyd OSJVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10764146635659770019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-24925049697413703942010-08-20T07:46:28.023+01:002010-08-20T07:46:28.023+01:00To play devil's advocate:
If a priest were to...To play devil's advocate:<br /><br />If a priest were to have to hand only an editio princeps of the Roman Missal (1474), would it be reasonable to use that?<br /><br />What if he had only a mediæval manuscript Missal available? - say, the Missale Aboense as once used in Finland (if he were off in such nowadays-Lutheran parts on holiday)?<br /><br />Isn't there a certain reductio ad Joshuahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17387698013828199070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-15100026815159118182010-08-19T23:52:37.780+01:002010-08-19T23:52:37.780+01:00I have in fact served a Requiem mass at Milton Man...I have in fact served a Requiem mass at Milton Manor, where the Missal of the Venerable Bishop Challoner was used, and all innovations subsequent to that Missal were omitted. This included using the ordinary preface, rather than the preface for the dead.<br /><br />I won't reveal the name of the celebrant; I wouldn't want him to be hauled off to the dungeons of the Bishops Conference, or davidforsterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15603145004197815827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-61286509446197587062010-08-19T22:05:16.039+01:002010-08-19T22:05:16.039+01:00If one were to simply use the use given in older m...If one were to simply use the use given in older missals, there could be theological issues at stake as well. If one were to offer Mass for the Immaculate Conception from a pre-1854 missal it would be the "Conception of the BVM" with propers pertaining to the older feast and not the newer.Dalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06431501238259860462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-32005968140853792572010-08-19T21:02:01.622+01:002010-08-19T21:02:01.622+01:00During the dark liturgical days of Pius XII, Rome ...During the dark liturgical days of Pius XII, Rome herself did not know what was going on.<br /><br />Proof: I possess a copy of the totum 1956 Breviarium Romanum editio typica, Vatican Press. While it contains the novel office of S. Ioseph Opificis, it also retains all the "abolished" octaves, the rank of semidouble, etc....in other words, the features allegedly cut in the preceding nonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17097976187067791789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-55611004474366754142010-08-19T20:46:53.357+01:002010-08-19T20:46:53.357+01:00Fr. Brown,
I am sure we agree on a lot of things!...Fr. Brown,<br /><br />I am sure we agree on a lot of things! <br /><br />This just rather highlights that the drafting of legal documentation isn't necessarily done by those knowing that much about their own liturigcal history. If PCED says St. Joseph must be named in the Canon then that is a post 1962MR <i>editio typica</i> praxis. If that is authorised why not authorise other post 1962 Rubricariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05050302650867319277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-77081754666124932262010-08-19T20:33:46.057+01:002010-08-19T20:33:46.057+01:00Rubricarius, it is good to agree with you on somet...Rubricarius, it is good to agree with you on something! My altar missal which was published in 1962 does not have St Joseph in the canon. As there is no public decree for a 1962 missal then I suppose the `Decembrists` can claim they have permission to include him. However as you have discovered that there is no official declaration of typical editions in AAS between 1920 and the 1965 Ordo Missae,Fr Michael Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15320336535138538635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-63690222553109804492010-08-19T17:34:40.053+01:002010-08-19T17:34:40.053+01:00Dates and ‘strength’ of pronouncements aside, I wo...Dates and ‘strength’ of pronouncements aside, I would say that St. Joseph should always be included in the Roman Canon. Why did it take almost two millennia to include him? Don’t know, but I suspect it was an acknowledgement of the ‘forgotten’ member of the Holy Family – much as the Holy Spirit is considered the ‘forgotten’ member of the Trinity. Perhaps it has to do with the fact that Scripture GORhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14313101159848740722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-2404589877533440822010-08-19T16:26:34.556+01:002010-08-19T16:26:34.556+01:00Summorum Pontificum is blandly silent regarding th...Summorum Pontificum is blandly silent regarding the use of missals prior to the issuance of the "typical edition of the Roman Missal promulgated by Bl. John XXIII in 1962" which, SP declares, to have never been "abrogated" (Rubricarius points out that the typical edition was promulgated 23 June 1962 sine S. Joseph - touché). Wherein are we to conclude that previous typical Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-62644211499298505022010-08-19T15:41:34.264+01:002010-08-19T15:41:34.264+01:00It would be very interesting to pose this dubium t...It would be very interesting to pose this dubium to the Ecclesia Dei Commission: is a priest at liberty to omit the name of St Joseph in the Canon? My guess is that the answer would be no. Perhaps someone will accept the challenge?Mgr Andrew Wadsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12821521091262543139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-5029347640050567042010-08-19T15:14:44.179+01:002010-08-19T15:14:44.179+01:00Dic nigrum, rubrum fac.
But there's more in ...Dic nigrum, rubrum fac. <br /><br />But there's more in your post than that, isn't there ! <br /><br />(Old Missals: I ordered one a few years ago from <br />England without reading the details. I thought it was a hand-missal. It turned out to be an old 1920s Altar Missal which weighed a ton. I was delighted to examine it with all the pasted-in updates that arrived from Rome, properly Walterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11120878717683753265noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-40769606490275053562010-08-19T13:46:23.320+01:002010-08-19T13:46:23.320+01:00The rather modern rise of devotion to St Joseph in...The rather modern rise of devotion to St Joseph in the West is a rather curious matter from a liturgical perspective, Joe the Worker, his name being inserted into the Canon etc. I would like to know where the Church draws the line vis the influence of devotion on the Sacred Liturgy. I mean, to what purpose is the inclusion of St Joseph's name in the Canon in 1962?Patrick Sheridanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07995907911415177074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-60046257271486475202010-08-19T13:19:24.344+01:002010-08-19T13:19:24.344+01:00One bit of Anglican "patrimony" which I ...One bit of Anglican "patrimony" which I would have thought we would want to avoid is the way Cranmer and the regency council did their best to bankrupt parishes with their frequent updates of liturgical books: the new Litany, the Communion service, BCP 1549, BCP 1549/Merbecke, BCP 1552, BCP 1559, etc.<br /><br />When the phrase "history repeats itself" is itself repeated, I Steve Cavanaughhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03021781365974293126noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-46927730009242740722010-08-19T13:08:10.573+01:002010-08-19T13:08:10.573+01:00I wonder if it should matter that the documents fo...I wonder if it should matter that the documents found at the front of the 1962 books expressly note the temporary nature of the rubrics contained therein. I for one was also always bemused at Bl. John XXIII's wish that clerics should have the texts of the Fathers at hand and be immersed in them, even as he chopped out 2/3 of them from the Office. Did His Holiness really expect priests to nonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17097976187067791789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-4437656559627238612010-08-19T12:27:12.986+01:002010-08-19T12:27:12.986+01:00The 'typical' edition of the 1962 MR was p...The 'typical' edition of the 1962 MR was promulgated by a private decree of SRC 23 June 1962 (never appearing in AAS).<br /><br />St. Joseph's name was added to the Canon from December 8th 1962.<br /><br />Clearly, by simple logic, the typical edition of the 1962 MR cannot contain St. Joseph's name - unless its printers were psychic. <br /><br /><br />The wider issue raises the Rubricariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05050302650867319277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-57992108667661087942010-08-19T11:44:54.473+01:002010-08-19T11:44:54.473+01:00I also do not think this convention is acceptable....I also do not think this convention is acceptable. I would cite two reasons: <br />1.Bl.John XXIII added the name of St. Joseph 'motu proprio', therefore this should be observed at all Masses celebrated since 1962.<br />2.'Summorum Pontificum' obliges the use of the 1962 Missal.<br /><br />To omit St Joseph is therefore at best an act of historical reconstruction and at worst Mgr Andrew Wadsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12821521091262543139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-64779193796258225322010-08-19T11:30:59.544+01:002010-08-19T11:30:59.544+01:00I am sorry to say that I have never heard that the...I am sorry to say that I have never heard that the later practice (the one advocated by the FSSP priest) is licit. Almost all the Old Altar Missals I have seen which were in regular use till the Novis Ordo came in have the new bits pasted in.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12813595031543071453noreply@blogger.com