tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post2750354295999471661..comments2024-03-18T20:38:40.751+00:00Comments on Fr Hunwicke's Mutual Enrichment: The epiclesis of the Roman RiteFr John Hunwickehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17766211573399409633noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-25422780509779209402010-09-26T18:12:29.266+01:002010-09-26T18:12:29.266+01:00In the city in which i live, there are nominally c...In the city in which i live, there are nominally catholic churches, where so-called extraordinary ministers (one of the most anti-traditional and regrettable of all post-conciliar inventions) regularly place non-consecrated hosts straight out of the plastic sack into the ciborium. A sacristan whom I know, who holds regularly scheduled ''Word-and-Communion- services'' admitted thisAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-22718915160930480462010-09-23T22:18:17.988+01:002010-09-23T22:18:17.988+01:00Ah... the famous theory of either consecration by ...Ah... the famous theory of either consecration by contact, or of if you add a lesser part to a greater part, the whole remains what the greater part was... this of course applies in the case of supplementing holy water... the practice you mention was used at Papal Masses way back in the first millennium for a while...Joshuahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17387698013828199070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-87638673336290054442010-09-23T13:49:19.134+01:002010-09-23T13:49:19.134+01:00I recall being told, by one of his colleagues, of ...I recall being told, by one of his colleagues, of a C of E priest (an ex-incumbent who was working at the time as hospital chaplain cum senior curate), described as "very high church", who believed that if the consecrated wine was running short during the administration of Communion it was OK simply to top it up with unconsecrated, on the grounds that once it was mixed all the Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09367545445575135099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-34411209886408644852010-09-22T17:53:55.539+01:002010-09-22T17:53:55.539+01:00'We see the Oriental epiclesis as a comparativ...'We see the Oriental epiclesis as a comparatively late fad in the evolving liturgical tradition'<br />Do you have references for this? Never heard it before. Really interested in this. Thank you.Matthew Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07564546155986482730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-46324497278199758182010-09-22T12:49:25.389+01:002010-09-22T12:49:25.389+01:00"didn't Bad Queen Bess commit some zealou..."didn't Bad Queen Bess commit some zealous presbyter to the Tower for doing exactly that?"<br /><br />Well, one at least, Robert Johnson of Northampton in 1573; cf. E. C. Ratcliff "The English Usage of Eucharistic Consecration 1548-1662," originally published in *Theology* LX:444 (June 1957), pp. 273-280 and later, posthumously, reprinted in *E. C. Ratcliff Liturgical William Tighehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16634494183165592707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-611584333330355042010-09-22T11:47:47.619+01:002010-09-22T11:47:47.619+01:00"… simply to add some more hosts to the cibor..."… simply to add some more hosts to the ciborium <b>without saying anything</b> …"<br /><br />I'm mystified by this claim, Father. The relevant rubric in Common Worship reads:<br /><i>If either or both of the consecrated elements are likely to prove insufficient, the president returns to the holy table and adds more, <b>saying the words on page 296.</b></i><br /><br />The ASB had a Williamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16010105719301587195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-42403884637236044612010-09-22T11:42:38.295+01:002010-09-22T11:42:38.295+01:00Nonjurors' Communion Office of 1718:
".....Nonjurors' Communion Office of 1718:<br /><br />"...saying, Take, eat, (c) THIS IS MY BODY, which is given for you, Do this in remembrance of me.<br /><br />"Amen.<br /><br />"LIKEWISE after Supper, he took the Cup; and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying Drink ye all of this, for THIS IS MY BLOOD of the New Testament, which is shed for you and for many for theJoshuahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17387698013828199070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-71350047585838002922010-09-22T11:32:20.918+01:002010-09-22T11:32:20.918+01:00The Nonjurors vastly preferred the Epiclesis after...The Nonjurors vastly preferred the Epiclesis after the Words of Consecration, and more importantly after the Oblation: that way they could argue that the Christian Sacrifice was offering of Bread and Wine as antitypes of the Body and Blood offered once for all, rather than as the oblation of the Body and Blood tout court.Joshuahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17387698013828199070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-62023300317223609832010-09-22T11:30:32.503+01:002010-09-22T11:30:32.503+01:00For that matter, I recall a nice pious old lady as...For that matter, I recall a nice pious old lady asking our priest something she'd always wondered: Where DO the Hosts in the tabernacle come from? Lord knows why in all her seven decades at Mass she'd never noticed the priest putting the ciborium away... I can only suppose she thought they descended from Heaven (which is sort of true enough in a deeper sense).Joshuahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17387698013828199070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-87287549254162737672010-09-22T11:27:46.312+01:002010-09-22T11:27:46.312+01:00"simply to add some more hosts to the ciboriu..."simply to add some more hosts to the ciborium without saying anything" - didn't Bad Queen Bess commit some zealous presbyter to the Tower for doing exactly that?<br /><br />I suppose the utter resistance among the lower sort of Anglican to Reservation and belief in a perduring real presence makes sense of their preference to treat the words spoken as sufficient, having no relation Joshuahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17387698013828199070noreply@blogger.com