tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post1358744101814485256..comments2024-03-27T17:29:51.954+00:00Comments on Fr Hunwicke's Mutual Enrichment: BYZANTIUM (2)Fr John Hunwickehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17766211573399409633noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-76128107400469201262009-04-23T23:21:00.000+01:002009-04-23T23:21:00.000+01:00It appears that the Greek Greeks are accepting the...It appears that the Greek Greeks are accepting their baptisms as valid, mostly from the Romans, but not their crismation into the Antiochian Greek Orthodox Church as valid...a denomination to which the Greek Greeks are in full communion. They have not been rebaptising the Filipino Orthodox, only recrismating them.<br /><br />As to the permanence of the western rite, only recently several Dalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06431501238259860462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-35209089895381799062009-04-23T19:45:00.000+01:002009-04-23T19:45:00.000+01:00...real Arab Antiochians are not being re-crismate...<I>...real Arab Antiochians are not being re-crismated, only Filipinos...</I>Again, the question is not whether they are Arab or Filipino (though I would not discount racism, too, but Greek racism puts all xenoi in the same bucket regardless of race) but whether their non-Orthodox baptisms are to be considered baptisms. Those that baptize converts do not consider themselves to be RE-baptizing 123https://www.blogger.com/profile/14514075641944568806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-62796492502109379112009-04-23T19:33:00.000+01:002009-04-23T19:33:00.000+01:00I know that most of us have moved beyond this issu...I know that most of us have moved beyond this issue, having certainly solved nothing, but it has recently transpired that in the Philippines members of the Antiochian Greek Orthodox Church must be re-crismated before being accepted for communion in the Greek Greek Orthodox Church in Manila! <br /><br />It seems that the Greek Greeks are upset that Antioch has accepted several thousands of Dalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06431501238259860462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-73592345810864721662009-04-09T15:00:00.000+01:002009-04-09T15:00:00.000+01:00Again, a perusal of the arguments and proof arraye...Again, a perusal of the arguments and proof arrayed by both sides of this debate within Orthodoxy are well worth the time. Just as Pope Stephen and St. Cyprian disagreed on how to receive schismatics and heretics into the Church, so too are Orthodox in disagreement today regarding more recent Christians to be found outside of the Church. While there are many comparisons that can be made between123https://www.blogger.com/profile/14514075641944568806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-62040977563096143942009-04-09T14:44:00.000+01:002009-04-09T14:44:00.000+01:00I think we all must agree with Dale, that uniformi...I think we all must agree with Dale, that uniformity in the Byzantine Commonwealth Churches is, de facto, lack regarding ecclesiology. <BR/><BR/>1. The smaller part insists on Cyprian's hardline in-or-out, "regardless of what you confess*" ecclesiology. This is the "rebaptism" sect.<BR/><BR/>2. The larger part follows the "proportional" ecclesiology of the Basilian canons which follow the "Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-39627231343364715122009-04-08T19:26:00.000+01:002009-04-08T19:26:00.000+01:00Sorry for posting virtually the same comment twice...Sorry for posting virtually the same comment twice! My computer has been giving me trouble!!!Dalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06431501238259860462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-23381294012471408782009-04-08T19:24:00.000+01:002009-04-08T19:24:00.000+01:00The lack of unity regarding what constitutes a bap...The lack of unity regarding what constitutes a baptism shows that regardless of their protest to the contrary, The Byzantines are not fully united in their theology. <BR/><BR/>One of my seminary professors converted as a priest from the Greek Catholic Church via vesting (In S. Alexander Nevsky Cathedral in Paris). When he visited Greece, they refused to allow him to concelebrate with them unless Dalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06431501238259860462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-64416797395081030542009-04-08T03:36:00.000+01:002009-04-08T03:36:00.000+01:00This "standard line" first arises with the Rudder,...This "standard line" first arises with the Rudder, which attempted to reconcile two inconsistent practices. <BR/><BR/>Indeed, prior to the Rudder -- a very late compilation -- the practice used largely depended on how tensions in Church politic were running. Schismatic baptisms were either considered valid (when tensions were low) or void (when hot disputes were on between separated or warring Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-71681617944978758892009-04-08T03:06:00.000+01:002009-04-08T03:06:00.000+01:00The standard line, even by those that only chrisma...The standard line, even by those that only chrismate Protestant and RC converts, is that no baptism outside of the Church is officially 'accepted', but it is completed or what is lacking is filled by chrismation. Whether one receives by baptism or chrismation is a matter of economia or pastoral discretion - which can be exercised in either direction.<BR/><BR/>So, the theology is pretty 123https://www.blogger.com/profile/14514075641944568806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-63036927994404706372009-04-08T03:01:00.000+01:002009-04-08T03:01:00.000+01:00LOL! Orthodoxy: "The Best in Unorganized Religion....LOL! <BR/><BR/>Orthodoxy: "The Best in Unorganized Religion."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-26338908729144253812009-04-08T02:46:00.000+01:002009-04-08T02:46:00.000+01:00Fr. Hunwicke's remarks regarding the rebaptism of ...Fr. Hunwicke's remarks regarding the rebaptism of Christian converts in Byzantium is indeed problematic. My own experience was one of my theology professors in seminary who had been received from the Greek Catholics as a priest via the traditional Russian method of revesting and concelebration, when he visited Greece they refused to concelebrate with him unless he accepted chrismation, which he Dalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06431501238259860462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-44365522203903650802009-04-06T16:11:00.000+01:002009-04-06T16:11:00.000+01:00It turns out that "I Confess One Baptism" by Metal...It turns out that "I Confess One Baptism" by Metallinos is available online:<BR/><BR/>http://www.oodegr.com/english/biblia/baptisma1/perieh.htm#periex123https://www.blogger.com/profile/14514075641944568806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-9708672421624191202009-04-04T17:41:00.000+01:002009-04-04T17:41:00.000+01:00Count me in too. This position seems to be entail...Count me in too. This position seems to be entailed by the Basilian Canons (which were given ecumenical in the Quintisext Council) standing regarding reception of para-synogogists and schismatics. Moreover, save a few periods of extreme polemical dispute with Rome, these canons have been the norm of Orthopraxis.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-60927127918061857362009-04-04T16:03:00.000+01:002009-04-04T16:03:00.000+01:00"Few Orthodox today would be willing o stand with ..."Few Orthodox today would be willing o stand with Fr. Nicholas Afanasieff and his spokesperson for our times Fr. Michael Plekon - and proclaim that wherever there is a real Baptism and a Real Eucharist there is the Church. Few - but I am one of them."<BR/><BR/>Hear, hear, Fr Gregory. I'll stand with you. Maybe there are more of us than we thought.D. Benedict Andersen OSBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14666112025416568912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-27383826481134338262009-04-02T02:59:00.000+01:002009-04-02T02:59:00.000+01:00I agree with Fr. Gregory that "those who claim suc...I agree with Fr. Gregory that "those who claim such a position are usually merely expressing an Orthodoxy of their (personal) preference." That, of course, includes both him and me.<BR/><BR/>What you see in Orthodoxy is very much like the diversity of views on the same topic in the early Church - with many of the same arguments being used, in fact.<BR/><BR/>Metallinos goes to great pains to note123https://www.blogger.com/profile/14514075641944568806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-85758048130395768872009-04-01T23:17:00.000+01:002009-04-01T23:17:00.000+01:00From my reading of the available literature, Fr. G...From my reading of the available literature, Fr. Gregory's summation seems to represent the p.o.v. of the vast majority of Orthodox both today and throughout history.<BR/><BR/>If the ancient Church considered Montanist baptism to be sufficient so as not to be repeated, then surely Catholics and Orthodox, despite their differences, can take regard each others baptisms as at least as 'sufficient' Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-1306611520007707892009-04-01T22:31:00.000+01:002009-04-01T22:31:00.000+01:00There is no "one" view on ecclesiology in the Orth...There is no "one" view on ecclesiology in the Orthodox Church. Those who claim such a position are usually merely expressing an Orthodoxy of their (personal) preference. In my studies at seminary of Orthodox Canon Law I have noticed that re-baptism is punishable by deposition of the priest/bishop who practices it (being an Athonite monk does not exempt one from this rule). <BR/><BR/>Distatsteful Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-27960677508898769302009-03-27T17:14:00.000+00:002009-03-27T17:14:00.000+00:00"I think Byzantine Orthodoxy could do with sorting..."I think Byzantine Orthodoxy could do with sorting this out."<BR/><BR/>As an Orthodox who would not even be viewed as a baptized Christian in certain Athonite monasteries, I couldn't agree with you more.<BR/><BR/>And of course you're not the first Anglican to say this. I seem to recall William Palmer of Magdalen, the phil-Orthodox Scottish Episcopalian who was so bewildered by the Orthodox D. Benedict Andersen OSBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14666112025416568912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-185291311265428632009-03-27T06:27:00.000+00:002009-03-27T06:27:00.000+00:00The perennial teaching of the Orthodox (as gleaned...The perennial teaching of the Orthodox (as gleaned from the prevailing practice over the vast majority of the past two millennia) weighs in against re-baptism of Trinitarians, no matter how odd their groups. For example, even a Montanists baptisms was considered valid despite being in the name of the Father, Son, and two charismatic women. This"liberal" position is also clearly stated in the Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-86918062159413722402009-03-26T21:36:00.000+00:002009-03-26T21:36:00.000+00:00George D. Metallinos, "I Confess One Baptism..." (...George D. Metallinos, "I Confess One Baptism..." (Athens, 1983 [in Greek]; Holy Mountain, 1994 [in English, St. Paul’s Monastery) is really the best resource for an in depth study of the reasoning behind those that would receive RC and Protestant converts by baptism rather than chrismation or confession of faith. Unfortunately, it is not available online.<BR/><BR/>Just about any of the reasoning123https://www.blogger.com/profile/14514075641944568806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-71168841632032080632009-03-26T20:42:00.000+00:002009-03-26T20:42:00.000+00:00This is a topic that is subtle and difficult - as ...This is a topic that is subtle and difficult - as theology should be - so is one is interested enough in this topic to do a little studying and not just express an opinion based on one's, well, opinion, see "The Non-Orthodox: The Orthodox Teaching on Christians Outside of the Church" by Patrick Barnes:<BR/><BR/>http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/non-orthodox.pdf<BR/><BR/>A little research into123https://www.blogger.com/profile/14514075641944568806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-85936710055702957942009-03-26T20:33:00.000+00:002009-03-26T20:33:00.000+00:00Of course it's no small matter and needs sorting o...Of course it's no small matter and needs sorting out.<BR/><BR/>As I understand it, <A HREF="http://home.comcast.net/~acbfp/IntroToOrthodoxy.html" REL="nofollow">the Orthodox</A> only recognise as grace-filled (valid in Western terms) in themselves the sacraments of their own church, part of their one-true-church claim, so they reserve the right to receive a Christian from another church by Ecgberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06354592772973677609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-6700887202534832122009-03-26T19:54:00.000+00:002009-03-26T19:54:00.000+00:00It's like the Pope recently said...some folks just...It's like the Pope recently said...some folks just gotta have some one to beat-up in order to feel validated. EO's make a career out of it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-72014963475343455592009-03-26T15:17:00.000+00:002009-03-26T15:17:00.000+00:00Pastor in Valle, Indeed! The East have serious pro...Pastor in Valle, <BR/><BR/>Indeed! The East have serious problems with their theology on a lot of sacramental points and what you have pointed out is one of their worst ones. <BR/><BR/>My other favourite is their attempt to deny purgatory by saying that all go to hell and some are released from hell after a while. As if one place could be eternal and transient at the same time! lolUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12813595031543071453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8940364093450837549.post-21899490807234086382009-03-26T14:38:00.000+00:002009-03-26T14:38:00.000+00:00Does anyone know what the Orthodox (large O) attit...Does anyone know what the Orthodox (large O) attitude is to the Donatists? This ought to shed some light on the matter. There were Eastern voices raised in defence of Cyprian on the subject of rebaptism, but Constantine having set his face against Donatism ought to have brought them on board.<BR/>I have certainly encountered this attitude among the Orthodox, though. A priest of my acquaintance, Pastor in Montehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05949810648656544072noreply@blogger.com